During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Jenny. EDIT #1:
to Harmon as well.
—
Okay, here's my attempted EP for Dragon King of Arms, Big Bad for Feet Of Clay (the third book in the Ankh-Morpork City Watch series). This is my first one for almost ten months, so I hope it's not too excruciating.
Who is Dragon King of Arms?
Dragon (as I'll be calling him for short) is the head of the Heralds in Aknh-Morpork, the organisation behind coats of arms as well as the historical genealogies of the Ankh-Morpork upper-classes and (now-all-but-extinct) royal lineage. He's also the mastermind behind the book's plot to depose/incapacitate Havelock Vetinari, city Patrician (victim to a number of would-be coups and plots), in this case by frequent cases of arsenic administered through candles (just enough that he won't die, but that he'll be unable to run the city and so the "civic leaders" will look to put someone else in his place while Vetinari is dismissed as too sick to run anything); the hope is that the conspiracy will appoint Nobby Nobbs as a Puppet King, instead of Carrot (the rightful heir who is considered too pure). Dragon is also the reason why the Golems are both causing chaos and practically lynched in the streets by angry Ankh-Morporkians (I think that's the term for city locals).
Dragon, as part of a ploy to get the city into chaos and pin it on Vetinari's inaction, helps the desperate Golems around the city create a "King", Meshuggah, which they hope will lead them to salvation and enlightenment (as the Golems are essentially slaves and the more aware of them are unhappy about this). However, Dragon eggs them on in affecting the Meshuggah's "Chit" (the paper/papers in a golem's head that determines its personality, directives etc.) and putting in too many demands to the point it is insane; the subsequent insanity causes it to kill at least two innocent civilians and try to kill Carrot, Colon, Angua and Cheery (all in the City Watch), and indirectly sparks a citywide panic that leads to many golems being murdered (Going Postal confirms golems are sapient beings with souls that go to the afterlife). On top of that, many of the golems involved in Meshuggah's creation commit suicide out of the guilt of having created a killer with Dragon's help (golems are firm believers in Thou Shalt Not Kill), all while Dragon remarks on Meshuggah being an excellent tool.
As further distractions to throw people off the scent, Dragon attempts to mess with Sam Vimes's mind by tarnishing his family's historic legacy (Vimes's ancestor killed the last "formal" king for being The Caligula which Vimes struggles to live down), and attempts to get him Off the Wagon by leaving whiskey bottles in his desk in the hopes he'll relapse. He also uses wordplay to outright telegraph his plot to Vimes, which gives him away much later on when someone who is Too Dumb to Fool accidentally points out the clue.
The candles Dragon produces via his henchman Mr Carrey's factory, aside from incapacitating Vetinari, also result in the death of a Mrs Easy and her grandson when an oblivious member of the palace staff takes home some supplies from the office (as most people do at some point), including the candles. While Dragon did not kill them directly, he shows no remorse for their deaths in a But for Me, It Was Tuesday way, not caring about them because of their lower-class status. Dragon also gets his claws dirty when he silences a panicking Mr Carrey (admittedly no saint by any stretch) before Vimes, Carrot and Colon can question him, and would have killed Vimes if not for Dorfl the Golem's intervention. Ultimately, once the plot is unravelled Dragon escapes any formal punishment due to his higher-class status and influential position, though Vimes inflicts Poetic Justice on him by burning down the genealogy record with a simple candle.
—
Freudian Excuse or sympathetic backstory? No. Dragon's just a smug asshole with a hideous dose of Fantastic Racism against werewolves to boot.
Agency / acting as an individual Vampires in the Discworld setting do not generally have their agency stripped away, except towards whoever sired them for whom they are near-unquestionably loyal (some vampires are born as such and therefore aren't sired). Dragon is neither part of a group nor deprived of his agency. Similarly, though vampires do have a craving for blood and whatnot, they are not Always Chaotic Evil (there are more good or neutral vampires than outright villainous ones in the series), and the bloodlust/power scheming etc. can be overcome through Addiction Displacement.
Redeeming qualities / mitigating factors i.e. humour ? Not really any redeeming qualities. The closest you have is a warped inversion of Even Evil Has Standards, when he objects to Dorfl the Golem being given a tongue to speak (Golems previously could not talk before this). Any objections he has to regicide (Warts and All) are seemingly part of his Faux Affably Evil nature, not any Blue-and-Orange Morality. There's the odd wordplay joke in his first scene, and he has an odd Annoying Laugh as a Verbal Tic (which makes the book less of a whodunnit and more of a "how-dunnit), but his crimes are played straight. Furthermore, what might seem like civic interest in genealogy is all-but-called out by Vimes as the vampire equivalent of selective breeding.
Mitigating Factors, Not as such. Dragon holds back from outright killing Vetinari (which would cause a crisis even bigger than just incapacitating him), but that's more out of Pragmatic Villainy than anything else to save his hide. He also keeps the conspiracy away from Carrot, partly because his pureness would make him difficult to manipulate and also because of Dragon's Fantastic Racism against werewolves (he thinks any potential offspring from Carrot and his girlfriend Angua would be polluting the royal bloodline). Dragon is more like a cattle farmer; you can hardly harvest the cattle if you destroy the fields they stand and feed on.
While his resources are relatively limited to contacts and knowledge of family history, Dragon exploits it quite mercilessly and directs Meshuggah along to sow chaos and kill potential threats whenever he sees one. He's also not afraid to get his hands dirty if he has to, and will exploit people's weaknesses with glee.
Heinous standard? Here's where I'm not 100% sure. As I mentioned in my previous EP for Ipslore the Red (my first successful proposal, woot), Discworld has to be considered from three angles: within the work, then within that work's series (if it's not a one-off book like Pyramids or Small Gods), then within the whole Discworld canon.
- Within the book: Dragon's the only antagonist in the book who's not been Forced into Evil (Mr Carrey is deeply over his head and clearly scared of his boss, even if he crosses the Moral Event Horizon by being more concerned about whether the woman and child that died from arsenic were "important) or made a Tragic Villain (Meshuggah was a Death Seeker who was the result of an experiment Gone Horribly Wrong).
- Within the Watch series:
- On the one hand, Dragon isn't a tragic villain like Edward d'Eath or Dr Cruces (Men at Arms) or Dee (Fifth Elephant), and doesn't show any Pet the Dog moments (Lupine Wonse, the Noble Dragon - both Guards, Guards). He also lacks any positive Visionary Villain traits (Prince Cadram) and his humour is pretty restrained at best.
- On the other hand, he doesn't quite go as far - albeit for reasons of Pragmatic Villainy - as Wolfgang von uberwald (Fifth Elephant) who engineered a war between dwarves and trolls out of evil amusement rather than to increase his power. He also doesn't torture people like Captain Findthee Swing (Night Watch) does. Both Wolfgang and Swing are the confirmed CM's for the Watch.
- For the whole Discworld series (aside from Swing & Wolfgang)? His crimes are smaller in scale than Jonathan Teatime (attempted god-killing and Stupid Evil murder) or Lady Felmet (co-ruler of a country and would be Lady Mac-Beth on evil steroids), or Isplore the Red (who almost destroys reality out of spite), but given the positions those characters find themselves in (in theposition to kill a god, acting royalty and controlling a Reality Warper respectively that's not surprising.
Verdict:
I'm personally leaning towards yes, but I won't lose any sleep if Dragon doesn't make the cut.
—-
I'm also thinking I'll do some EP's for the Outside Xbox Dungeons and Dragons campaign to see if anyone qualifies, I can do that sometime next week. I'm off to bed for now.
Edited by captainmarkle on Dec 21st 2019 at 11:27:03 AM
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Maybe yes to Dragon.
And Lighty, I agree with Mir; I am pretty sure this is plagarism. Never mind the fact that CM writeups should stay in the CM section, but an entry should be done on its own. There may be a lot of similarities between, for example, Knight of Cerebus and Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, but does that make it acceptable to write the exact same entry for both? No, and doing so tends to encourage the practice of Putting Multiple Tropes on a Single Line/And Separating Them by a Slash, which we have agreed is bad practice.
Edited by MasterN on Dec 21st 2019 at 3:33:09 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.I would like to nominate Lord Barnier, from The House in Fata Morgana Who is Lord Barnier? Jean-Franćois Barnier is one of the biggest catalysts of the story of Fata Morgana and the man who essentially started Morgana's slow descent into madness. He purchased the young Morgana one day after hearing about her "saint's blood", and the first time we see him, he is reveling in a harem, and it is mentioned that several children are in the mix as well. He demands to her that she use her miracle blood for his own personal satisfaction, and upon her refusal, he chains her up and forcibly cuts her for her blood, which he serves at essentially blood feasts, where he and numerous other lords drink her blood, with Morgana being cut across every inch of her body, and he does this for weeks at a time for a year. One day soon after he buys her, he kills a servant, and gives Morgana his flesh to eat raw, while forcing the servant's brother to watch, taunting the brother of the servant when she says the meat is vile. It's also noted that he has tortured and killed slaves for no reason, simply because he was in the mood for it. He also repeatedly taunts Morgana for her faith, which is one of the most important things to her as she believes she is the daughter of God. At one point he forces a servant to act sickly and drink her blood, whereupon he pretends to be cured, and then tells her that all that was was an act. When Morgana's face starts falling apart, he immediately attempts to murder her. When he is about to be killed later, he runs Ceren, the woman who saved his life, through just for the chance to try and kill his eventual killer. Even after his death, his memory haunts Jacopo as he tries to be a lord, tormenting him and causing him to deteriorate into the ruthless and trustless man we see.
Mitigating Factors? The best he's got is that he was driven mad by all the people trying to kill him for the throne, but he is well aware that he's a bastard, he simply doesn't care. In his own words, referring to the time of his rule, he "knowingly chose to stray from the path of righteousness". He also has a relationship with Ceren that humanizes him, as he does trust her more than any other, but he makes it clear that he's doing it out of a fascination of her and her lack of negative emotions rather than any sort of genuine care, and that if she ever learned how to feel properly, he would kill her because she would have no use to him, and he does eventually kill her when she breaks his order to stay in her room while Jacopo comes for him. When compared to all of the other villainous characters, the others are either nowhere near as heinous as Barnier, or otherwise have far more sympathetic traits, be it in their motivation or in their desire to better themselves.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Barnier, IF - and ONLY if - his love for Ceren is indeed fake. The character page says he went out of his way to protect her, but if that was just Pragmatic Villainy, then sure (and given that he apparently kills her, that does seem to be the case).
And if that is true, we have to either cut this entry:
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: He does seem to genuinely care about Ceren (though not romantically), and goes out of his way to protect her during the revolution.
...or edit it to clarify the subversion of a normally instant disqualifier.
Oh, and
to Dragon. Hate Sink, maybe, since he lacks sympathetic qualities, but not enough for CM status. The other, later sure keepers are FAR worse.
Any new Monster pages coming up? I lost track. And since this is the season for giving, any Christmas-themed CMs that anyone would like to propose?
Edited by MasterN on Dec 21st 2019 at 4:38:14 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Don't do this please, MasterN. Don't reply to a question from a year-and-a-half ago in a way that, frankly, is TMI and completely and absolutely beside the point of the thread.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Sorry. You are right. Deleting and keeping everything else.
So, anyone want to weigh in on Lord Barnier
? He seems like a good keep, but then there is his relationship with Ceren. Is is real love, or does him killing her later prove he only sees her as a tool or whatever? I can, and will, probably play the VN myself to be sure... soon as I am done with Life Is Strange 2 and Steins;Gate 0.
Edited by MasterN on Dec 21st 2019 at 4:52:02 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.I did clarify it in my post, but Barnier only "cares" about Ceren in the loosest possible definition of the word. It's more of an interest than an actual care. She is the person he cares about most, but as said in the original post, he is only interested in her due to the fact that she's completely emotionless, and if she ever gained any emotions, he would kill her because at that point she would offer nothing for him. He did try to protect her by telling her to stay in her room when Jacopo came to kill him, but when she left her room to help him, and she did save his life, he killed her just because it gave him a better chance of killing Jacopo. So while Ceren is a "loved one" to him, I don't believe that it would discount him just because he doesn't actually have any love for her, simply fascination that he is fine with getting rid of if it helps him.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>Found another unapproved Complete Monster pothole, this time on the page for Starship's Mage. I cut the pothole and linked to the thread. Anybody interested can do an EP if they want.
- Fantastic Racism:
- Taken to an even further extreme in Sword of Mars. Dr. Finley considers all non-Rune Wrights to be failure Mages and is perfectly fine with extracting their brains to use in The Republic's interstellar jump ships.
So PsychoticRanger4567 asked in the discussions for Video Games Q to Z this:
"Can someone add Badger from The Walking Dead: New Frontier in here, too? He more than qualified for this list."
I directed him to the thread. Does he qualify? I have no knowledge of The Walking Dead so I can't say anything.
She/her. Profile pic is by Richard Michael Gomez @StarmansArt. Please watch Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. https://youtu.be/Vm92JNgPbqk

Got a weird example of plagiarism here. Some troper took the CM writeups in YMMV.Batman The Brave And The Bold and literally copy-pasted them onto Vile Villain, Saccharine Show. Observe (Starro entry there for context; bold words mine):
Edited by MasterN on Dec 21st 2019 at 3:17:05 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.