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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Crowley Since: Jan, 2001
#19501: Nov 25th 2013 at 9:13:18 PM

[up][up]As am I. You've only brought up snippets until now.

edited 25th Nov '13 9:13:31 PM by Crowley

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#19504: Nov 25th 2013 at 9:48:33 PM

Okay Lord Vyce, from the top of my head:

Who is he?

Vyce is a conquerer from another galaxy. He seeks the Entity an Eldritch Abomination bent on consuming all that is. He's amassed an empire and is trying to draw out and destroy the creature

What does he do?

Conquered numerous galaxies, and put them under his control. He seeks out the Entity in Linkara's universe and resurrects Mechakara to destroy him. when that fails he goes to earth himself to fight Linkara but eventually fails. After he's beaten and exiled, Linkara takes his ship. He turns into a static ghost and possesses a body for Pollo (the robot buddy), trying to take control of his ship, and failing at that he's thrown out of an airlock.

He comes back by mind raping NIMUE, the ship's AI, and manipulates Linkara into killing her. He then tries to kill Linkara again.

Anything Redeemable?

At first he seemed to be a well intentioned extremist, but the heroes have pointed out that there's a difference between doing bad for the greater good, and doing what he's doing for his own glory. He pursues the entity for his own pride and refuses to believe that it is dead. His nature as a Well-Intentioned Extremist is pretty invalid.

Does he count?

I'm honestly going to say no, his previous conquests were offscreen, and he makes it a point that he does not consider NIMUE a being and thinks of her as Just a Machine. His Pet the Dog moments are subjective, as he does promise to keep Linkara's universe under his protection, but that could just be further proof of his ego. When he retakes the ship, he states that he hates Linkara a lot after all that he's done and could kill him in a dozen different ways, but chooses to just drop him off back on earth. Only when Linkara throws another Spanner in the Works does he relent and try to kill him.

I don't think he's sympathetic, but he suffers both from Offstage Villainy and his greatest crime is trying to kill the hero. Standard villain bar the NIMUE incident.

Finally, Vyce is still out there, the arcs he was in are over, but I don't know if his character arc is yet.

edited 25th Nov '13 11:28:29 PM by DrPsyche

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19505: Nov 25th 2013 at 11:07:57 PM

[up]Sounds like a good argument. I'll say cut.

Now, since there seemed to be no objections to Glandyth-a-Krae...

  • Corum: Earl Glandyth-a-Krae, Arch-Enemy of Prince Corum, and leader of the Denledhyssi. We first meet Glandyth when he is having several of his human prisoners tortured to death. We subsequently discover that he has been responsible for committing genocide against the Vadhagh, with Corum's family among his victims—his father and uncle cut down by Glandyth, his sisters and cousin gangraped by Glandyth's men while he looked on. Capturing Corum, Glandyth puts out his eye and severs his hand, planning to leave him with no hands, no eyes, no tongue, no feet, and no genitals. Corum is saved by The Brown Man of Laahr, whom Glandyth subsequently captures and murders, and taken to Moidel's Mount; Glandyth unites the local Pony Tribes and attempts to kill everyone there. He later participates in his king, Lyr-a-Brode's invasion of Lywm-an-Esh, sacrificing prisoners in order to summon up the army of his gods, The Dog and The Horned Bear, and planning to use Corum's body as a vessel for the soul of Arioch, The Knight of the Swords. When Corum manages to resurrect the Vadhagh, Glandyth, now acting on his own, makes a Deal with the Devil with Mabelrode the Faceless, The King of the Swords, inflicting the Vadhagh with a disease that causes them to go mad and slay one another; he intends to use Mabelrode's power to Take Over the World. A mass murderer, a rapist, a xenophobe, and a cheerful participant in genocide, Glandyth-a-Krae is finally killed while trying to cheat his way to victory in a Duel to the Death with Corum.

How does that look? Also, given that this is the second or third time he's come up, I was thinking of doing a big write-up for The Gentleman, to explain why he doesn't count. Then if it becomes necessary, we can just link people to that post.

edited 26th Nov '13 9:55:45 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#19506: Nov 25th 2013 at 11:38:35 PM

I know he's already been approved by everyone here, but I honestly think Phantom is the worst, most horrible bastard of the Ace Attorney Complete Monsters. He not only bombed a courtroom and killed three different people (or more if you count the murders he's indirectly responsible for) but he also tried to kill (and nearly succeeded) an 11 year old girl. What do I mean by nearly succeeded? Well, she's completely covered in blood, including the headphones she wears. If that doesn't make for some creepy imagery to be associated with him, I don't know what does. Oh and when he's Bobby Fulbright, he installs a shock panel into Prosecutor Blackquill's shackles and if you look closely he's enjoying it when he shocks Blackquill implying he's a sadist.

Also about the Rainbow Dash thing, it's a canon ending, not a fan made ending. It's an alternate ending though, she's sent into the grinder instead of Scootaloo. I think the pegasus in charge of the Rainbow Factory (the other guy, not Rainbow Dash) qualifies even more than she does, as he seems to be enjoying what he does, and is the one who kills both Scootaloo and Rainbow Dash after Rainbow Dash tries to protect Scootaloo. Granted Rainbow Dash in that fic is still extremely horrible and an extreme example of Ron the Death Eater, but she has a Redemption Equals Death moment so I think she should be removed.

edited 25th Nov '13 11:40:05 PM by Klavice

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19507: Nov 25th 2013 at 11:51:09 PM

Arius and Bennett I'm iffy on. Quite a bit Offscreen Villainy.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19508: Nov 26th 2013 at 12:30:43 AM

I'm similarly unsure on the Commando examples.

@ Hamburger Time: I'd say Universal Soldier is making a statement about Scott himself rather than being a product of his time or overshadowed by the war itself. He's the only soldier to behave like this, and the Vietnam scene is only the prologue. Once he regains his memories and knows that he's on American soil years later he just continues killing whoever else he wants to get revenge on Deveraux for being a traitor unwilling to do what it takes (i.e. slaughtering civilians) to win a war he knows is already over. Taking Deveraux's parents and 'sentencing them to death by court martial' especially can't really be explained by that.

EDIT: Majora's Mask was removed from The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask on 19 October apparently without thread approval. Was a final decision ever reached on him? There were still unresolved discussions on his Eldritchy nature/moral agency.

edited 26th Nov '13 3:18:07 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#19509: Nov 26th 2013 at 6:01:37 AM

@19510: cut em both.

@19516: Agreed that Vyce doesn't qualify for those reasons. There's also the additional argument that, just because Linkara and his crew don't view Vyce as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, that doesn't mean Vyce himself doesn't believe he's one, who is committing evil for the greater good.

@19517: Entry looks good to me.

@19520: The forum decided to keep Majora. I think he was the only Zelda villain who was agreed to count.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#19510: Nov 26th 2013 at 6:26:01 AM

Alright then, you can cut Rainbow Dash.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19511: Nov 26th 2013 at 8:44:17 AM

What remains from Artix Entertainment (will be moved to main page):

AdventureQuest Worlds:
  • Chaos Dragonlord Vath not only enslaved the dwarves, but also his own dragon. He doesn't care how much pain and suffering he's causing the dwarves in the slightest and doesn't even care if they starve to death, as long as they can forge enough Chaos Gemeralds to keep him happy. Worse yet, Vath even threatens to enslave the rest of Lore and will throw the bodies of anyone who tries to foil his plans down to the dwarves as a demonstration of what happens to those who oppose his might.
  • Chaorrupting his brother Antiphuus and allowing his kin to blame the Horcs for his death? Check. Stealing an Arashtite ore of the Accord of the Dark Sun from the Ravine Temple? Check. Chaorrupting friends and family alike and doing so to both his own kin and the Horcs? Check. Using the chaorrupted (by Xing and Xang) generals of both sides of the Alliance to try to shatter said Alliance and get the Hero blamed for it all? Check. Willing to sacrifice anything — even family — for Chaos power? Double check! Yeah, Chaos Lord Krellenos is a monster. So much so that it's very satisfying to see him killed by Khasaanda, his twin sister, who usurps his power before doing so.
Vath doesn’t look TOO bad (may need some work), but egad Krellenos’s entry is a mess.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#19512: Nov 26th 2013 at 10:29:23 AM

Earlier we cut Gregory Grue from Extraordinary from Monster.Literature because the entry didn't explain enough. I found this on The Cornersville Trace Mythos:

  • Complete Monster: Gregory Grue. Let us count the ways. He's a Manipulative Bastard. He gives rather brutal verbal beatdowns to the protagonist. He threatens to kill Jen. He's a vampire con man who was hired by Mutual's parents to convert Mutual into a vampire. Not only that, but he also converts Cathy, tries to manipulate Jen into converting, and kills Fred. And unlike converting Mutual, those last three were NOT a case of Just Following Orders. Oh, and also, he infiltrates Jen's mind and makes her have sex dreams about Fred to further manipulate her. As Jen puts it, "he totally crossed a line."

Is this one any better?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19513: Nov 26th 2013 at 11:48:45 AM

[up]Still doesn't sound like enough.

Cracked just ratcheted up the heinous bar, for the record. Yesterday's suspects offed a total of nine people, and injured eight more. I don't think they qualify as they get very little characterisation beyond wanting to be famous (and they might care about each other), but that's where the heinous bar is now. One of those cases where I'd love to propose them, but cannot do it in good conscience.

edited 26th Nov '13 12:16:04 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#19515: Nov 26th 2013 at 7:36:04 PM

Okay let me try a second draft:

  • The Shadow King from Wolverine and the X-Men is a cruel and merciless telepathic mutant who has a past with Storm. When Storm was a child, the Shadow King forced her to become a thief. Shadow King would berate and threaten Storm if she did not return with enough stole goods to satisfy him. After befriending Xavier, Storm gained confidence and stood up to Shadow King. Shadow King responded to this act by saying Storm was worthless and then attempted to punish Storm for her defiance. Xavier intervened and used his mental powers to defeat the Shadow King. Though his body was destroyed fighting Xavier, his evil consciousness lived on and he gained the ability to possess others and force them to do things against their will. When we first see Shadow King in the present, he has possessed a man in a desert, who seems to starving and at death's door. When another man arrives and attempts to assist the starving man, the Shadow King possesses this good Samaritan and leaves his original victim to die in the desert. Shadow King later possess Storm herself and forces her to use her Weather Manipulation powers to destroy all Africa, simply to spite her.

Feel free to give constructive criticism.

edited 26th Nov '13 7:42:08 PM by TheOverlord

LLCJ Since: Feb, 2013
#19516: Nov 26th 2013 at 8:50:16 PM

I just found a little context of an example of a film titled Sin Nombre. This is the only argument:

Complete Monster: Lil Mago, who would also fall under Asshole Victim.

OK, this character is a real Jerkass. He is also a potential qualifier due to his attempted rapes.

edited 26th Nov '13 8:57:23 PM by LLCJ

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19517: Nov 26th 2013 at 9:05:47 PM

Tell us more?

Oh, and we can finally cut Obito. He does genuinely try to atone with a Redemption Equals Death that Madara hijacks

edited 26th Nov '13 9:36:01 PM by Lightysnake

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#19518: Nov 26th 2013 at 9:22:53 PM

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant has some pretty elaborate entries:

  • Lord Foul is one of the most horrifically evil Dark Lords in fantasy, and proud of it. He's called "the Despiser" for a reason, namely that he holds every living thing that's not himself in purest contempt, and is perfectly willing to annihilate physical reality purely so he can escape from it. While he's waiting to accomplish that, he gets his jollies by causing smaller-scale apocalypses (the one in the Second Chronicles purely to screw with Covenant's head), driving people so far past the Despair Event Horizon that they become agents of their own destruction, and giving magnificent monologues about how much you suck compared to him. All of this without the slightest shred of remorse, by the way, and Word of God notes that while he's essentially the Anthropomorphic Personification of evil, don't think it absolves him of moral responsibility for his crimes- at least theoretically, Foul always had the option to choose to stop being the Despiser, but doing so never entered his head. Rather, after every defeat, he just examines what he did wrong so he can be even more evil next time around. Sheesh.
  • Foul's Co-Dragons, the three Ravers, are just as bad. They were originally three human brothers whose evil was so great it survived past the destruction of their physical bodies as incorporeal demons with a thing for possessing people. In addition to being willing accomplices in all of Foul's crimes (because they think that when he breaks free of the Land, they can ride his metaphysical coattails into godhood themselves), and sharing his gleeful, psychotic sadism, each Raver has racked up a number of atrocities of his own. Moksha Jehannum Fleshharrower and Samadhi Sheol Satansfist both did stints as Foul's head general, massacring countless innocents (and their own troops) and Samadhi (as Gibbon na'Mhoram) was the head of a Path of Inspiration that sacrificed countless lives while lying to the people of the Land that it would help reverse the After the End conditions of the Sunbane (when in fact it was just making it worse), while Moksha stalked Covenant over much of the Second Chronicles infecting him with venom in order to force him to use his ring at full power whether he wanted to or not (which could well have destroyed the world, which was the plan). Turiya Herem Kinslaughterer doesn't show up as often as his brothers, but commits probably the single most appalling atrocity in the entire Chronicles- committing the genocide of the Giants of Seareach. Singlehandedly. While they refused to fight back.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19519: Nov 26th 2013 at 9:26:03 PM

[up] Ooh, Thomas Covenant... I've heard of this series, and I've heard of it because it's another series where people find the protagonist to be the least-sympathetic character in it. As far as I can tell, the premise is that this guy gets roped into a fantasy adventure thingy trying to atone for... a rape he committed for no reason. So you can see why people hate the guy.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#19520: Nov 26th 2013 at 9:30:30 PM

And apparently this is intentional:

  • Designated Hero: Done deliberately. The people of The Land are in desperate need of a hero, and they tend to treat Covenant like one in spite of the way he actually acts. Indeed, one of the main thrusts of especially the first trilogy is exploring the idea of what happens when the Messianic Archetype is really a self-hating jerk.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19521: Nov 26th 2013 at 9:33:05 PM

[up][up]I haven't read the series, but a look over the character sheet would indicate that Thomas does actually improve for the better. Whether you believe he should be allowed to get better after what he's done is a whole different kettle of fish, but it would appear that as the series progresses he becomes more interested in doing the right thing for the right reasons, accepts that he'll never fully atone for what he's done, and dedicates himself to stopping The Big Bad.

I don't know how true this is, but if it is true, Thomas would not stop others from qualifying.

EDIT: I know it ain't a great film, but was Daredevil ever discussed? Because its version of Bullseye might qualify. In the (far superior) Director's Cut he actually adds to his bodycount too. Lemme see here, he kills: the old lady on the plane, guy at the bar who was tried to rip him off, Elektra's dad and her bodyguard, one or two of Kingpin's bodyguards, and Elektra, and that's leaving out his attempt on Daredevil.

edited 26th Nov '13 11:47:12 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19522: Nov 27th 2013 at 10:07:19 AM

If I was your Nazi

  • Complete Monster: Larxene qualifies when you read her reason for why they need to build more death camps.
—> “There are too many here.” Larxene spoke for the first time. “I have too many people and not enough time to perform experiments on all of them.”

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19523: Nov 27th 2013 at 10:11:52 AM

[up] Oh great, this fic. I remember it because it was on SBIH when that section had a fanworks page...

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19524: Nov 27th 2013 at 10:12:52 AM

So. Ummmm.

Why is Kingdom Hearts crossed over with The Third Reich?

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19525: Nov 27th 2013 at 10:16:07 AM

Best not to question those kinds of actions, especially since in fanfics, most villains tend to be more heinous than their canon counterparts.


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