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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#194226: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:41:01 PM

[up]I am tempted to make a Captain America: Civil War joke, but since that would be kinda mean, instead I will just say that we should just end this. I would prefer to keep ATR and simply keep this discussion in mind for any future endeavors involving a CM candidate originating from a joke. Specifically, never allow one again. We will just Grandfather Clause ATR.

Edited by MasterN on Dec 6th 2019 at 6:43:19 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#194227: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:46:32 PM

IMO, we should either allow any candidate like All The Rest or just ban them all; if we just keep All The Rest and not allow any others, it seems hypocritical. I personally lean towards the former; I doubt that it will become a huge issue, and if it does become an issue, I don't think it'll be too hard to just burn them all.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#194228: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:47:47 PM

[up][up] That "idea" just won't work for the reasons stated above.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#194229: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:48:40 PM

Just wanted to drop in and say thank you to Tyk. Periodically looking in, something had been rubbing me the wrong way about this conversation, and their post summed it up pretty well.

TBH, I really don't get what the deal is with this trope/this thread sometimes. It's just a way to potentially characterize a villain.

Edited by nrjxll on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:52:08 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#194230: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:54:55 PM

I don't care where the idea for All the Rest came from beyond personally not seeing it as a great starting point. If there are other works out there that have nothing but the torment the villain causes and flex how monstrous their baddie is, they aren't conducive to this trope either. The story detailing the psychological trauma the protagonist goes through under ATR's tyranny does nothing to take away from the fact the story is still refusing to stray to focus on anything but how evil ATR is. There are a thousand things wrong with the OG!Nyarly comparison but if you're bringing me another example where similarly the work is devoted to nothing but how monstrous the bad guy is, you're giving me a case to vouch for them to be cut as well, not keep this example.

N we're not grandfather clausing anything.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 6th 2019 at 9:55:50 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#194231: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:59:02 PM

I don't quite get why that's a problem, necessarily. It's a short horror story. Regardless of why it's written, it seems to hit the criteria for us.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#194232: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:00:48 PM

Again, I don't see anything happening that doesn't just focus on the villain and how they can torment people.

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#194233: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:02:37 PM

Honestly, I think it's kinda silly that a short story I wrote months ago is causing this much controversy.

Honestly, I'm tempted to just go back and write "And then All the Rest miraculously became a good guy and never hurt anyone again" just to end the debate.

Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Dec 6th 2019 at 7:04:47 AM

RIP KissAnime.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#194234: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:05:03 PM

No one's getting up in arms about it... I'm saying I don't think it fits for this trope... others do.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#194235: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:05:25 PM

I really don't think it's good practice to omit things just because they're villain focused or dark. It's why we've agreed to do this on a case by case basis, and why we take pains not to do some terrible 900 word story of just 'villain does evil shit' with no care.

I mean I get the concern behind why it was written, but we're expressly supposed to be 'authorial intent doesn't matter' with these. It's just that I think it should be evaluated on an individual basis.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 6th 2019 at 7:06:17 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#194236: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:06:14 PM

Getting off-topic for a bit, but since Elfen's apparently gone....has anyone seen The Kid Who Would Be King? Discussion for that film's been overdue for nearly a year now, and I was thinking of checking it out.

Why so serious?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#194238: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:06:55 PM

Nobody is "up in arms" about it but the fact remains this has gone on a page or two too long.

People. Take a vote count, make a decision, move on. I can have an effortpost or two later tonight to help get us back on track but we shouldn't be getting stuck on nails like this.

@Clown: All yours.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:09:08 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#194239: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:44:49 PM

I’ll just abstain on All the Rest for now. Also, not gonna lie, gonna really miss Elfen, he was a pretty cool guy. (Though we can discuss my feelings on that via PM.)

Also, I’m considering on putting Starlink Battle for Altas on my to do list. I sincerely believe that the game’s big bad, Grax, has a shot of counting. What do you guys think, should I go for it?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#194240: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:18:43 PM

Elfen and I were gonna do a couple villains from House of Anubis. Anyone else want to give me a hand instead?

Also, still wondering whether or not someone wants to do the original Charlie's Angels show with me too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:20:38 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#194241: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:24:35 PM

Speaking of Elfen, we were going to look at Hyrule Conquest together, would anybody be willing to look at it with me, if not, I'll cover it alone.

Having seen Kid Who Would Be King when it released I doubt the Big Bad counts but go ahead.

Also my discussion on Knives Out may be delayed due to finals being next week.

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#194242: Dec 6th 2019 at 9:33:36 PM

So quick opinion question.

There's a really good book I read, and one of the villains is particularly nasty. But here's the rub: in the story, the town the story takes place in is cursed every year by a witch to make everyone turn evil, and all the already evil people become even worse. The aforementioned villain is one of the townsfolk affected by this curse (he's a villain that becomes even worse). So right off the bat, you might think that there's moral agency issues if he's made worse by this curse. However, the thing is, this guy KNOWS about the curse, and he actually looks forward to it. He knows that the curse will make him worse than he normally is, and looks forward to being able to do things that would not fly any other time. Once the curse is lifted, he is forced to conform back to his role and restrict how evil he is. So would a villain who is under brainwashing/curse still be able to qualify if they KNOW that it's coming, and just elect not to do anything about it?

Edit: I'll [tup] All The Rest

Edited by SumDumNerd on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:06:25 AM

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#194243: Dec 6th 2019 at 9:36:31 PM

Hm....that's a tough one, to say the least.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#194244: Dec 6th 2019 at 9:45:56 PM

Switch to abstain for All the Rest.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#194245: Dec 6th 2019 at 10:19:55 PM

I don't really have much to say about the whole "what is and isn't a conducive story for CM". I don't think stories should be written just to get a villain approved for CM, it's fine to willingly write a villain to be a CM of course (pretty much everyone who has done writing on this thread has gone that route at some point), but when it's explicitly stated that a villain, and the story around them, was created just to get approved, that's when things start getting murkier for me. Short horror stories are fine and dandy for candidates to count IMO, it's just the...oddness that comes with "I wrote this story just to get a character named something funny to count" that makes me, personally raise an eyebrow.

On another topic however, here's a candidate I initially was kinda "ehhhh" on, but talking with 43 convinced me he was worth some discussion. From the same writer as my last candidate Picasso (that being Jilliane Hoffman), here's another novel that takes place in the C.J. Townsend universe.

What's the work?

Plea of Insanity is a courtroom/legal, eh, "thriller" novel about a young lawyer, Julie Valenciano, and her increasingly in-over-her-headedness as she is dragged into the middle of a court case involving a man accused of butchering his entire family, and as the trial unfolds it brings with it arguments over what does and does not fall under "sane" and "insane," questions of if the accused is schizophrenic or psychopathic, and insights into Julie's own past and history of mental illness in her family.

Also some subplot about Julie sleeping with her boss who is also the lead attornet on the case but both you and I should try to just ignore this and stick with what we care about: Murder!

Who is he?

Dr. David Alain Marquette is a brilliant, charming, handsome surgeon whose entire family is wiped out in the span of a single night seemingly by an intruder, and he himself stabbed in the gut and left for dead.

Course, we know I wouldn't have said his full name if that wasn't utter crock.

What has he done?

One night, when Marquette was supposed to be hundreds of miles away for a conference, he returned home to his family—comprised of beautiful wife Jennifer, six year old daddy's girl Emma, cliche rambunctious three year old Danny, and merely weeks old baby Sophie—in the dead of night. Marquette grabbed up what was most likely a baseball bat, bashed his wife in the head, then stabbed her dozens of times before heading into Sophie's room and suffocating her. Proceeding to bludgeon and stab Danny to death in his bed, Marquette then stalked his daughter Emma through the house as the young girl tried to call police, and as Marquette closed in on her, her last words screamed into the phone were "No, Daddy!"

Police responding to the phone call found the bloodbath of the Marquette house, every one of them dead except for David Marquette himself, who had seemingly been stabbed in the gut.

After a long hospital stay, Marquette is arrested and eventually put on trial for the murders of his family given the heavy evidence against him... unfortunately, Marquette appears to be completely checked out mentally, downright catatonic, and his lawyer reveals that Marquette is actually schizophrenic, and only killed his family because his mental illness had convinced him they were possessed by demons and needed "saving." Indeed, Marquette's only spoken words the whole trial, to prosecutor Julie Valenciano specifically, were to mutter "I saved them" to her, and though the prosecution and Julie herself believe this to be an act by Marquette at first...welllll...

After a long court case filled with twists and turns that results in Julie flipping her opinion on Marquette and using an opportunity to paint him as even more mentally unwell than his lawyer was successfully doing due to her belief that Marquette truly is schizophrenic, Marquette is declared Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity, and sent to a mental institution to be rehabilitated.

Of course, as we then see in Marquette's final POV chapter (he had a couple before this one but they were more along the ambiguous lines and just "reacting" to his surroundings than anything else), he actually was faking schizophrenia, giddily noting to himself that it "...Wouldn't be long before...God miraculously healed the sick and he would be well again and they would have to regrettably let him out. Time was sure to quickly fly", and as he is being lead away in chains by guards, Marquette takes the time to turn towards Julie and, in a show of "thanks" for her assistance in getting him off scot-free, smiles at the woman eerily.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

A big chunk of the novel is basically an examination of this from both prosecution and defense, trying to find things about Marquette cruel and evil or pitiful and sympathetic, respectively.

Marquette's parents were wealthy and overbearing, and his twin brother Darrell was more favored by his parents until he actually was afflicted with schizophrenia, giving more credence to Marquette's potential for mental illness...but it's simultaneously pointed out that, if Marquette is faking, he'd have a perfect frame of reference with how his twin acted.

Ultimately though, any and every sort of excuse or sympathetic feature for Marquette is thrown out by the end for the reader. He reveals he specifically noticed Julie's indecisiveness on his guilt (which is why he threw in the "I saved them" as a further push towards being a victim) and took advantage of it, he soaks in all the attention he's receiving and how millions of people are watching him, noting that the "attention was never his intention" but a nice bonus, and gleefully brags to himself how quickly he'll be "cured" and released into the world again.

Marquette's "original" plan, as far as it's dwelled on? Was apparently to sneak home, murder his family, then sneak back to his hotel 300 miles away and let the whole thing be a "burglary gone bad" or some such. But when Emma managed to phone police and scream "No, Daddy!", Marquette realized he was supremely screwed if he didn't think of something, and so first stabbed himself to act like he was present for the massacre, only to later change his story to "Uhhhhhh...... I'm not mentally well..."

Heinousness?

This is the same universe as Picasso and Cupid, rapists and torturers and murderers galore, but even in this 'verse, Marquette has a very, ah, special evil about him. He butchers his wife and three kids, said kids whom are all under 7 years old, and it's revealed in reports of his childhood that Marquette once tried to murder his mother with a hot iron. This was used to further push the "schizophrenia" defense, but seeing as Marquette isn't schizo...

There is a mild implication that Marquette has a partner who helped him—and the two might have actually been a serial killer duo—but this is such a minor thing that, though I could see it have developing in a sequel, a sequel to this novel was never written so I'm sticking with the obvious facts here.

Any other issues?

Only real thing to note here is simply that Marquette isn't exactly bristling with character or motive. He's never given a solid motive for slaughtering his family, the most recurring theory is that it was for his wife's massive insurance policy and to avoid the responsibilities of being tied down, as he had been rumored to be sleeping around on his wife for months.

He shows obvious glee and smug joy in getting away with his crimes, but there's still absolutely zero motive or reasoning for his crimes except the prosecution's argument of "insurance money, bored of being a responsible adult."

Final Verdict?

Julie is one of the most irritating and frustrating protagonists I've seen in recent memory, her absolute pisspoor judgement and idiocy getting a psychopath off with—

Oh, Marquette? Ehhhh I guess I can lean Keep to him, his final POV chapter is way too over the top and prideful in getting away with everything to leave any sort of doubt that he didn't do it, he's heinous enough despite the setting, and though his motive is iffy it doesn't change the brutality and horror of his murders.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#194249: Dec 6th 2019 at 10:56:46 PM

Yay to David.

RIP KissAnime.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#194250: Dec 6th 2019 at 11:33:50 PM

[tup]David.

Why so serious?

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