During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay, Western Animation mostly looks good, with a few exceptions:
- Danny Phantom has Dan Phantom, but not enough detail to me.
edited 23rd Nov '13 3:15:35 PM by ACW
Okay, this is going to surprise a lot of people, but I honestly think Lord Vyce should be added to the list.
Now the obvious argument against him being a Complete Monster is "But he's an Anti-Villain! A Well-Intentioned Extremist! The Hero of Another Story!He doesn't qualify to be a Complete Monster!"
But is he really a Well-Intentioned Extremist? In the last two arcs he's appeared in, it's been made clear that Lord Vyce's desire to kill The Entity was motivated, not out of a desire to protect people from it, but because he wanted the glory of being the one too defeat it himself. In addition, it's HEAVILY implied that the people living under his rule where absolutely miserable, so he probably doesn't care much about the well being of those he's supposedly "protecting".
In fact,Linkara even says at one point:
—> "Once he finds The Entity, he'll tighten his grip on this universe untill the entity and everything elsein it is crushed. That's all we are to him, just run off."
Truly the hero of another story!
In addition to that, Mechakara's own Moral Event Horizon crossing moment, the one that sealed his place as a Complete Monster, was something that Lord Vyce fully approved of. The only point that he showed displeasure was when the plan failed. Which means he was perfectly okay with Mind Raping an innocent man in to commiting suicide. And that's not even counting Vyce's own Mind Rape of NIMUE. Plus the rather violent pleasure he takes in killing those who challenge him. (Most heroes don't say they're going to mount their victims heads at the front of their ship.)
See, for all of Vyce's claims that he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist, he honestly strikes me as someone more like Judge Claude Frollo: A man who claims to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist in order to satisfy his own ego, and justify his ultimately selfish motives.
—> NIMUE: You are evil Vyce. You are cruel and unjust.
edited 23rd Nov '13 7:32:38 AM by Lunacorva
I also wanted to ask about The Executor's inclusion as a CM from the To Boldly Flee.YMMV page. It is shown that he's a Laughably Evil antagonist but is still a genuine threat to the Critic's crew and the TGWTG universe. So, do you think he counts?
I'm gonna agree with Morgenthaler. Cut The Borgias examples. the bad Teen Wolf ones as well.
Right now, I'll say no to Vyce unless someone makes an argument otherwise.
ACW: cuts for the Brave and Bold are in, we're waiting for Willbyr. Cut the Propaganda film one. The Dark Dweller has agency.
Done on the YMMV pages, and I requested the propaganda film be cut. Three left.
EDIT: Before I start the Literature main page, I wanna COMPLETELY finish:
edited 23rd Nov '13 12:05:21 PM by ACW
I've been watching X-Files, and I'd like to mention that guy from "Fire". He has the ability to mentally start fires but uses it to burn people alive for fun. He immolates two people(one of them after poisoning them for days with a accelerate of some kind for days so they'd go up even hotter), starts a fire in a room with two kids just so he can "save them" and make himself look good, tried to burn them alive for real after he's found out, used Mulders fear of fire to mentally torture him, tries to burn down a house with the whole family, Mulder, and Skully inside, and tries to get the kids to smoke cigarettes in the same fashion a high-school bully might by telling them it's cool and manly
edited 23rd Nov '13 1:19:01 PM by shoboni
Ah, Cecil D'Lively. he's on the page. Just needs a rewrite
I'm gonna rewrite theWhen They Cry examples to the bst of my abilities
- The leader of the Orphanage of Fear in Big Bad Miyo Takano's past was a sadistic disciplinarian who believes in brutalizing the children by whipping any he deemed 'disobedient' so that the others could hear. When one boy accidentally spilled the ink in his pen, the orphanage leader forced him to eat the ink. Takano herself was even forced to clean a filthy house with her mouth and saw one of her friends turned into chicken feed. With this treament, it's little wonder Takano ended up as such a delusional psychopath.
Nomura looks okay now.
- Teppei Houjo is also a Child Hater who commits child abuse in inventive and chilling ways. Not only is there evidence he raped his own niece Satako, an 11 year old, he forces her to strip naked so he can use her for a 'table' and humiliate her. He regularly uses psychological torture on her as well, and murdered Rika, another child for getting involved. Even Big Bad Miyo Takano considers him utter scum.
edited 23rd Nov '13 1:32:32 PM by Lightysnake
Have these comic entries ever been discussed?
- Complete Monster: The Vampire fits. Multiple horrific murders, psychological torture on victims and if he wasn't before he sure is now from his brutal maiming and murder of Toni.
- Dr von Reichter. When describing why he had to destroy the Cybers, we're treated to a shot of a Fixed Idea forcing a nine-year-old Cyber into a meat grinder. Alive. Feet first.
edited 23rd Nov '13 1:26:14 PM by TVRulezAgain
The Vampire, or more accurately, The Collector, is a keeper. Chew is a futuristic world where the hero is a Cibopath, a food psychic. He can eat something and know everything about it. This...can lead to terrible side effects as he can relive a cow being slaughtered, taste pesticides on plants, etc.
here are other food psychics out there, of which the Collector is one. His power is absorbing the powers of others by eating their flesh. He acts as a vampire to throw suspicion off, murders and eats his victims to become 'perfect.' Toni, AKA Antonella is the sister of the hero Anthony "Tony" Chu and has the ability to see possible futures of what she eats. She's captured by The Collector, which she knew would happen and left various clues to help her brother stop him. During the capativity, the Collector is furious he can't steal her powers after eating two limbs (Toni loaded up on beets for months beforehand. Beets are somehow immune from food psychic powers). Toni taunts him how her brother will kill him for it and he snaps and breaks her neck.
Overall, the guy's an easy keep. A murderer, cannibal and egomaniac
Umineko.
- Bernkastel, the Witch Of Miracles, reveals herself as a cruel sadist over the course of the story. Embracing her role as Big Bad in the fourth arc, Bernkastel set up Ange Ushiriyoma to have a hell of a life in order to manipulate her as a pawn later on before deciding Ange is of no further use and leaving her to turn into shredded meat. In the 'game' on Rokkenjima island, Bern introduces a pawn named Erika Fudo to mentally torment the mentally fragile Natsuhi by accusing her of being the murderer. She helps the elimination of the Golden Witch Beatrice to seize control of the game and cement the protagonist, Battler in a forced role of villain. Bernkastel's only real pleasure in life remains the suffering of others, and it's something she creates with endless amusement.
Looks good. How about the 3 remaining questions for Western Animation?
Just cut that final line from HIM. No idea for the Danny Phantom example.
Not sure what your Mega Man objection is. the only entry there I see is Dr. Wily
Mega Man Check the animated series folder.
EDIT: I cut requested a cut for that final line for HIM (and cut it on YMMV). As for Danny Phantom: http://dannyphantom.wikia.com/wiki/Dan_Phantom
Moral agency issues? Anyone else know about that show?
edited 23rd Nov '13 2:01:59 PM by ACW
Well, from what I remember from that DP episode is that in the alternative future, Danny felt so guilt-ridden over the deaths of everyone he held dear, he asked Vlad to remove his ghost half believing that he couldn't prevent their deaths. Vlad does so, and removes his ghost part. However, it took out Vlad's ghost part, and it fused with it for some reason. Thus Dan Phantom was born. He then murders his human self and escapes from Vlad's lab to begin his reign of terror. Is this good enough for the moral agency part, ACW?
We discussed Dan Phantom a while back, but never reached a decision due to the fact that he has a Freudian Excuse, but then proceeds to invalidate it via a Stable Time Loop, which is just as confusing as it sounds.
![]()
Still seems somewhat Made of Evil.
Ow my head. Just keep for now?
Full explanation: In Dan's home reality, Danny's entire family and both his beast friends were killed when the local Burger Fool blew up (the food there was really greasy, apparently). Distraught, Danny turns to his Arch-Nemesis, Vlad Masters, for help, who extracts his ghost half, which then goes rogue, absorbs Vlad's ghost half, kills his human half, and takes over the world. This would altogether b a mitigating factor, I think, except at the very end of the episode it's revealed the Burger Fool was blown up by... Dan himself, in an attempt to ensure his own existence. He's a bit unique in that I think he's the only confirmed murderer in a Nicktoon, unless Avatar counts as one, but this time travel stuff is so screwy I'm not sure if he qualifies.
edited 23rd Nov '13 2:30:13 PM by HamburgerTime
Okay this example on The CRONIES is a mess:
- Complete Monster: Gauron, but that's understandable, considering his mindset and all of the things he's done in his series. Eggman has come off as this in this series, sometimes intentionally, sometimes For the Lulz. Let's check off all of the "nice" things he's done...
- Putting Tomoyo Daidouji in charge of his Eggman Empire while he goes off to Dream Land, and then when he returns, destroys her regime and calls her out on being a monster because the people of the world liked her more than him, despite the fact that he mentally scarred her afterwards.
- Killed a Waddle Dee in cold blood, casually incinerated Whispy Woods to ashes, and made his Egg Carrier destroy the comparably smaller Halberd.
- Annoying Farah Oersted to the point that she's become not only traumatized by his irritance, but more than willing to do whatever it takes to murder him. He made her a broken mess just by using his words.
- In "The Days of Eggman", he casually passes off an actor portraying Sonic getting vaporized by a ray gun as "special effects".
- Everything he did to the Moon Kingdom: destroying and ruining Sailor Moon's wedding, killing Queen Serenity (while balls to the walls trippin' on ecstasy), and dooming the entire Moon by turning the entire place into a massive garbage dump! Eggman justifies that shameful act due to the fact that the Moon Kingdom was planning to destroy the Earth anyway.
- Naked backflips...
- Admitting that he trashes Tails's house as badly as the others do, and, while he's the only sober one at the time, he burns down Tails's house in a "run of the mill flamethrower incident." And then when he's alone with Tails, he abducts him and mercilessly beats him while he's stuffed inside a burlap sack.

Re: Age of Apocalypse: Do Apocalypse, Holocaust, and (Dark) Beast all qualify in this continuity?
With one yay and no opposed, I've completed a write-up for Highlander III's Kane. Formatted here with the Kurgan from the first film:
Several examples were cut from The Borgias for one example lacking context, but I concur with them. This show embraces Grey-and-Gray Morality a bit too much to include any truly purely evil villains. The two previously listed examples had redeeming moments, Giofanni Sforza essentially became a joke after the Borgias forced him to 'admit' his impotence in front of Rome, and the Duke of Milan is basically a non-entity for most of the series. Any other candidates would probably fail to stand out from anyone else, including the protagonists.
I stumbled across this on Teen Wolf:
Not familiar with the show. Peter is plainly not an example. Kate's write-up mistakes Moral Event Horizon for Complete Monster; her character sheet says that she's an Anti-Villain and cares for her niece. Gerard and Jennifer may qualify. Isaac's father isn't heinous enough compared to the genocial sadists and murderers in that show and his parental abuse seems like Offstage Villainy.
edited 23rd Nov '13 12:53:09 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"