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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#194151: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:07:05 AM

Well, ok.

Correct me if I am wrong, but does this mean that troper works are banned? Cause there go my planned fanfic candidates if so.

Edited by MasterN on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:08:30 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#194152: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:08:20 AM

No, it just means that authors are not allowed to vote on candidates they wrote, since they may be biased one way or another.

[up] You can allow others to discuss your works. Also, it’s one thing to aim for a truly reprehensible villain because it fits the narrative better. It’s another thing entirely to write a story for the sole purpose of having the villain make the cut.

[down] The consensus seems to be that the story doesn’t have enough of a substantive plot.

  • I just saw this Torture Porn work that was so sick! The villain here is an easy keeper!: OK, there's one thing you need to consider: Does the film have a substantive plot? By this, we mean a plot that's more than "depraved person tortures people For the Evulz."

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:23:13 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#194153: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:08:55 AM

No, I meant the fact that we are cutting All The Rest. I know that authors are biased.

Edited by MasterN on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:09:13 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#194154: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:14:05 AM

@falcon Thank you. I appreciate it.

I reserved The Irishman by the way.

Also Austin, the discussion on Frozen II is not on the 11th. It's TODAY. There were a couple discussions in the time I was gone that were about two weeks later than they should have been by the way.

EDIT: For anyone who missed it, I said my thoughts on Descendants 3 (not great, but the best of the three movies) and that other movie here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=7749 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:17:02 PM.

[down]Well I'm writing one that'll give Scar Snout more crimes and give us an idea of his personality. Granted, I already think we got that from the movie, but still. Not the main reason or reasons I write fanfics or stuff in general though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 6th 2019 at 9:37:17 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#194155: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:35:23 AM

@falcon: That's fine. But I guess I personally dislike being lopped into that kind of grouping because I do stories largely of my own volition rather than "I'll make a story where X is a CM!" That sets up a bad precedent where I feel that it prejudges me when you may not know my actual motivations aside from just asking. But that's unrelated.

....Oh crap.

Well, anyway there technically isn't a bad guy in Frozen II; I would put emphasis on technically because the actual bad guy King Runeard was dealt with prior to the events of the film. To be frank, on paper, Runeard sounds worse, definitely more so than Prince Hans. But the issue I have with Runeard is that I feel that several people are using buzzwords to make him sound worse. In the film, he was the former king of Arendelle who appeared to be a benevolent ruler and oversaw the construction of a dam presenting it as a peace offering to the Northuldrans, a group of people who were more in tune with nature (Anna and Elsa's mother was a member). In actuality, he despised them for their ties with nature saying that those with magic felt they were entitled to go against the rule of a king. So the dam was really to deprive them of their resources until they were forced to trade with Arendelle and subjugate themselves to his authority. The unnamed leader of the Northuldrans goes to Runeard to air his complaints...and Runeard kills him, despite him being unarmed. This kickstarts a war between Arendelle and the Northuldrans where Runeard fell to his death and the nature spirits seal the forest away out of anger. Thus making him posthumously responsible for the events of the sequel.

So, what do I mean by buzzwords? For one, nowhere in the film does it state that Runeard was planning on committing genocide on the Northuldrans, just him wanting to subjugate them to his rule. He does deprive them of their resources which could implicate systemic starvation to weaken them to make them more compliant, but even then? I would hardly call that "genocide." And the war was ignited because of his murdering of the Northuldran leader. There it's more "I'm starting this war to cover up my crime" than "I'm going to wipe this disgusting race off the face of the Earth." I feel that some are reaching in potential Fridge Horror grounds to make the case that he is Eviler than Thou compared to Hans. To me, it's kind of like how Chrysalis' threatening of ripping off Spike's wings or using a baby as a power source. He's bad, but I personally don't find him as anything other than your generic evil overlord.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 6th 2019 at 9:25:57 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#194156: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:36:33 AM

So if my fic is written in part to get a villain added, but it is not the only purpose, and I make the fic long enough that it can be said to have an extensive plot, it can qualify?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#194157: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:41:34 AM

The villain can be as clearly made to be a CM as you'd like as long as the plot constitutes more than just focus on them and how evil they are.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#194158: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:47:14 AM

So I've been following this Life is Strange fanfic for some time. It looks to be ending soon, and I'm keeping an eye on two of its villains ATM, but I do have this question.

One of these villains is Jefferson, is the fics Starter Villain and dies shortly into the story. I'm wondering if I should wait until the fic is actually over before going for an EP ?

Edit: I'm also with Austin on Runeard.

Edited by Beast on Dec 6th 2019 at 10:54:10 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#194159: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:48:31 AM

[up][up][up]Nah it's fine. Their alot of authors who write their villains as pure evil scum of the earth/spawn of the devil incarnate. But we're fine with examples from guys like John Shirley or Patricia Briggs or Kelley Amrstrong etc. Because they put effort to have it not just be that. Just make sure it's not only said bad guys crimes and nothing else.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:50:38 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#194160: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:53:19 AM

Mark Jeffershit, a mere Starter Villain?

Personally, I think you can EP him if you want, but I would personally wait until the fic was done just in case a redeeming quality or two comes up.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#194161: Dec 6th 2019 at 8:53:53 AM

For well-written yet gleefully over-the-top baddies, look at 2000 AD.

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#194162: Dec 6th 2019 at 9:10:51 AM

Speaking of the authors and the way they see their own characters, is that the characters that they are created can end up being Unintentionally Sympathetic or Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

In fact, some characters we consider complete monsters were created by accident.

—-

Speaking of King Runeard, the fact that some people consider him worse than Hans seems to me to be an Informed Attribute on the part of the fandom.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Dec 6th 2019 at 9:18:20 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#194163: Dec 6th 2019 at 9:46:23 AM

@ Beast If the villain's arc is over, much like the Starter Villain you mentioned above, go for it.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#194164: Dec 6th 2019 at 10:03:32 AM

Agreed with Georgie. And sure to cutting All the Rest.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#194165: Dec 6th 2019 at 11:07:49 AM

I'll just wait till the fics over.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#194166: Dec 6th 2019 at 11:13:49 AM

Alright, a few things to address with some of them being late...

I have the discussion date for Bug Fables, but won't be able to play it until Christmas. It's one of few things I care enough about to effortpost, so please let me have a few weeks to get to that spoilered villain, whoever he may be.

Speaking as someone doing writing of my own and has no problem writing about really, really depraved villains, I'm not opposed to revisiting candidates like All The Rest and deciding if they actually count or not. I'd say cut to ATR by the way: it's one thing to write a story that has a POINT that also happens to have a really awful villain like, say, Tyk's many stories, but I can't say I'd approve of villains written so they can be a CM. It's just a trope, not a badge of honor.

Also, in general I'm probably going to be dropping a lot of my CM discussions dates from here on out. The only things I really care about enough to effortpost stuff from are Bug Fables, Deltarune, that seventh Ace Attorney game that... never came out despite being announced for 2018, those Pokemon fangames on my to-do list, and the inevitable Spider-Man PS 4 sequel. Maybe the also inevitable Horizon Zero Dawn sequel, as well as a few Marvel/DC baddies on my to-do list. But to be frank I'm just getting tired of this thread and feel like I've allowed myself to get too invested in a character archetype that is ultimately one of many writers' tools, if that even sort of makes sense. I'm not opposed to popping back in here every now and then for stuff I stumble upon, but I've got too much stuff to do and think I ought to just focus my priorities on other things.

[down] Didn't mean to imply that you were: I was talking about All The Rest and whatever others fall under that umbrella.

Edited by FriedWarthog on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:45:04 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#194167: Dec 6th 2019 at 11:18:38 AM

I can assure you that I don't write stories just to have a CM in them. Were there any more thoughts on Runeard? Me and Beast both have the same idea on him being generic.

Edited by AustinDR on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:39:12 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#194168: Dec 6th 2019 at 11:26:08 AM

Haven't watched it yet. I plan to next week though he does sound like a Geneic Evil Overlord

Edited by miraculous on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:27:13 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#194169: Dec 6th 2019 at 11:26:12 AM

[up][up] I feel that Runeard is generic and relies on Fridge Horror

Edited by KingofNightmares on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:28:11 AM

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#194170: Dec 6th 2019 at 12:08:45 PM

Eh, I'm fine cutting all the rest I guess, I feel like the whole situation was perfectly fine, but I can see others reasoning otherwise.

That being said I disagree with the thing about All The Rest being part of some bigger problem cause of the "Trend" of other tropers short stories getting brought up a lot recently.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#194171: Dec 6th 2019 at 12:28:30 PM

Well I am personally not sure he counts, I think Runeard is at least worth an EP so we can at least reach a verdict on him.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#194172: Dec 6th 2019 at 12:29:42 PM

I mean..theoretically I could make one. But I don't really see a point to because I would personally not do one with shaky evidence and hearsay.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#194173: Dec 6th 2019 at 12:45:06 PM

Speaking of fanfics. I was actually considering on making some of my own, one based on SMG 4, and the other in DC Superhero Girls 2019 so far. Of course, if they do get written, I will be writing them cause I want to write a genuinely compelling, not for the sake of adding a CM in it. In fact, the villains I’m considering on writing are either a Dark and serious Knight of Cerebus, or a tragic anti villain, but whether would either of these stories has an actual would depend on you guys. Like Austin DR, I would focus on writing the story and characters, rather than making a CM, but who knows, maybe there will be one, only time will tell... And if I actually write these stories that is.

Also, King Runeard... That’s one a tough case, he sounds bad on paper, but Austin DR’s thoughts on him give me pause. Have to think really hard on this one.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#194174: Dec 6th 2019 at 12:52:33 PM

Yeah I would not be comfortable with Runeard going up. After what Austin told me about him. He sounds like he could count on paper, but he isn't clear enough in his goals to really say he count.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 6th 2019 at 2:54:08 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#194175: Dec 6th 2019 at 2:01:13 PM

[tdown] All the Rest

As for Runeard... Do they go into the damage the war caused? Because if so he could still count.


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