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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#193526: Dec 1st 2019 at 5:52:37 PM

[tup] to Picasso, the Candidate and Maxwell

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#193527: Dec 1st 2019 at 5:53:08 PM

Yes to Maxwell and the Outpost candidates.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#193528: Dec 1st 2019 at 5:54:39 PM

Golgo 13 is a morass of heinousness. I could theoretically EP Snake and Waltham, knowing the works well, but...

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 1st 2019 at 5:56:57 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#193529: Dec 1st 2019 at 6:05:34 PM

I have already added the franchise to my to-do list if that's okay with everyone. I have actually been looking for an excuse to watch a new anime.

[down] I was planning on looking into the Anime or the Manga.

[down][down] I'm still gonna try and get into it, because I like action series, but thanks for clarifying.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 1st 2019 at 9:35:50 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#193530: Dec 1st 2019 at 6:06:58 PM

No one counts in the Golgo film, I’ve seen it and the heinousness is a mess there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#193531: Dec 1st 2019 at 6:10:27 PM

The manga...noobdy keeps from the volumes Viz did.

If you want to watch it then feel free, Sky, but nobody keeps. Tentative yea to Maxwell, providing the apocalyptic bodycount isn't just implication.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 1st 2019 at 6:13:02 AM

Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#193532: Dec 1st 2019 at 6:27:12 PM

It's more or less stated with Iris earlier that the goal was to basically use Earth as raw materials to mass produce an army of herself, and that was Maxwell's plan through her.

When told the people of Earth are innocent people trying to survive, Maxwell's response is they and the people on the colony are the same and nothing more than a testing ground for him, and given he murdered everyone on the colony, it at the absolute least means that he's willing to kill everyone on Earth if it gets him what he wants.

And he killed likely hundreds of people on the colony, given only about three people out of an entire space colony survived even disregarding that.

Edited by Godzillawolf on Dec 1st 2019 at 9:28:31 AM

AlmightyKingPrawn I can chase the wind, I can race the rain from Down at Fraggle Rock *clap clap* Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
I can chase the wind, I can race the rain
#193533: Dec 1st 2019 at 6:30:39 PM

[tup] Picasso, Maxwell

She/her. Profile pic is by Richard Michael Gomez @StarmansArt. Please watch Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. https://youtu.be/Vm92JNgPbqk
Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#193534: Dec 1st 2019 at 6:32:13 PM

Also, lightly, if you meant with the colony: it's decidedly not implied. We see people get bloodily gunned down on screen with an uncensored headshot and everything.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#193535: Dec 1st 2019 at 7:17:52 PM

So, tonight I've got a candidate I've been dragging my feet on for three years—longer than half the time I've been on this thread—and a nasty, nasty villain from one of my old childhood favorites.

What's the setting?

The Doomspell Trilogy from Cliff McNish is a trilogy of fantasy books for children (roughly the same demographic as the original Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone) following a young girl named Rachel and her brother Eric, each pulled from Earth into a black-and-white fantasy world called Ithrea. In this strange world—populated by strange like baby-faced crows and five-hundred-year-old eternal children such as the pleasant, heroic Morpeth) Rachel and Eric awaken latent magical gifts allowing them to change Ithrea around them. This turns out to be a very mixed blessing, as the person who pulled her here does not have pretty intentions for this magic power of Rachel's...

Enter the Witch. Dragwena.

Who is Dragwena? What has she done?

Eons ago, Dragwena was one of the most powerful members of a magical race known as the Witches that lived on the planet of Ool. There they were opposed by the Wizards, their more noble magical counterparts. Even among her sisters, Dragwena was a psychotic beast who bred an army of millions of savage magical children she's tortured and conditioned into killing machines that take life as she does: "without hesitation, without guilt." Knowing the Wizards wouldn't hurt child soldiers, Dragwena used these child soldiers to cut waves of slaughter through the Wizards until one of the most powerful Wizards of all, Larpskendya, lifted the children from her control and banished her to a small planet.

Dragwena languished in despair for years until she learned Larpskendya was developing magic on Earth through latent children. Dragwena worked on a spell that would pull magical children from Earth to her world—Ithrea—to enslave them. From there, Dragwena turns Ithrea into what can only be called a living hell for the children she pulls there; Dragwena has destroyed countless thousands of children through her horrific abuses, forcing generations of them to spend centuries slaving away building her enormous palace which led to the death of every child that worked on it. From there, Dragwena forced most of them out to spend years out in the freezing, horrible conditions of Ithrea's wild to gather food for her.

Children perish by countless numbers, left either to the cold, hunger or packs of ravenous wolves by Dragwena, endlessly slaving away and dying to bring her food. The children who live with Dragwena in the palace fare no better as Dragwena maims and abuses them for any reason she can think of—casually breaking one of her servants' legs in an early scene as one example—and murders them for any hint of failure or resistance, or simple boredom. Morpeth sadly muses this is the eventual fate for every child, even the loyal ones, with Dragwena at the end of every life, "enjoying every moment."

Beyond this, Dragwena spends her time scouting for a girl called the "child-hope." This supposed prophesied child is the key to Dragwena's ultimate victory, using her power to help manifest the Doomspell and bring about "darkness without dawn" upon Ithrea and Earth both. Dragwena routinely puts the children she captures through sadistic trials that more often than not end with them being ripped apart by giant serpents. The child-hope turns out to be Rachel; initially, Rachel is charmed into believing Dragwena's lies, but eventually Dragwena shows her true colors by forcing Rachel into a game of "snakes and ladders"—with said giants serpents chasing her—under the threat of eight-year-old Eric's life. From there, Dragwena puts Rachel through bouts of Mind Rape and curses her to a gradual, painful transformation which will turn Rachel into another Witch—and Rachel will enjoy killing children as much as Dragwena does, the Witch promises, even musing perhaps she'll have him kill her own brother.

Dragwena responds in increasingly brutal fashions to resistance, pledging to torture Rachel's friends for "perhaps up to a hundred years" and tear out Morpeth's eyes while he's still alive. Dragwena orders the "Sarren"—the resistance movement comprised of children hiding away from Dragwena—massacred to the last, ordering rebels, their families and anyone who helped them captured and slaughtered. The subsequent attack, during which Dragwena kills many Sarren herself, leaves the survivors whittled down to a scattered, wounded remnant of what they were holed up in Latnap Deep. Dragwena attempts to have everyone left remaining massacred, either by her converging armies or by Rachel turning into a Witch, and when Rachel manages to resist her spell, Dragwena summons a beast called the Manag to try and destroy everything left.

When she's foiled, Dragwena vows "I will kill one last child!" and zooms in on Eric to snap his neck—upon which Eric uses his latent powers to start unmaking her utterly, upon which Larpskendya finishes the job. The dying remnants of Dragwena kickstart the events of the next two books by giving the attention of the world over to her sister.

Any mitigating factors?

No. Not a single remotely redeeming factor—her sisters on Ool, even though they're a nasty bunch with a lot of murder and torture themselves, are disqualified via the fact they genuinely did love Dragwena. Dragwena, on the other hand, is never indicated to have cared for them. Not even in passing. She never mentions them, once, in the present day except to invoke their name in revenge and how she returned her sisters' feelings goes completely unexplored in the end.

The heinous standard is no problem whatsoever. The Witches are nasty, but not one single one of them has made the art of hurting children that Dragwena has and none of them as as petty and sadistic.

Conclusion?

Easy keeper.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 1st 2019 at 8:19:13 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#193536: Dec 1st 2019 at 7:26:29 PM

[tup] to Picasso, the Candidate, Maxwell, and Dragwena

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#193537: Dec 1st 2019 at 7:26:52 PM

[tup] Dragwena. Were you also a 90s kid, Scraggle? I was born in 96.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 1st 2019 at 10:27:24 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#193538: Dec 1st 2019 at 7:31:30 PM

And a solid, long awaited yes to Dragwena

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#193539: Dec 1st 2019 at 7:39:30 PM

Yes to the Candidate, Maxwell, and Dragwena.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#193540: Dec 1st 2019 at 7:44:03 PM

[tup] Maxwell.

[tup] Dragwena.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
PotatoPatato Since: Jun, 2011
#193541: Dec 1st 2019 at 8:00:45 PM

I was the one who made the original Golgo 13 post, having seen both The Professional and Queen Bee myself. I'm sorry I didn't check it here first but I was unaware of the strict rules surrounding the trope. If someone else would like to make an effort post on the subject that would be great but I can do one myself if need be.

I've gone back and read over the requirements for a Complete Monster thoroughly and I'm extremely confident that both should still qualify. If anyone has a reason why I may be mistaken or if there was something I overlooked please inform me, since I was sure I did my research thoroughly. In any case, I look forward to any additional discussion on the matter.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#193542: Dec 1st 2019 at 8:02:24 PM

Welcome to the thread.

Are you going to do an effortpost? I have written a guide below.

What is the work?

Describe the work and its setting, as well as a summary of what it is about.

Who is the candidate, and what have they done?

Explain who the candidate is and what heinous actions they perform.

Are they heinous by the standards of the story?

How much do their actions stand out compared to the actions of other villains, or even the heroes? In a world where everyone is a killer or rapist, a bank robber may not make the cut, but a mad scientist who performs cruel experiments may have a chance.

Are there any factors which mitigate the possibility of the candidate qualifying?

This would include moral agency, freudian excuse, possible redeeming qualities, and offscreen villainy.

What is the verdict?

State whether the villain qualifies or not, based on the criteria listed.

Edit: However, I understand from Lightysnake and 43110 that the setting of the anime is pretty jacked, so that is why other people (including myself) don't feel that these candidates make the cut, given that the standard for heinousness is pretty high.

[down] I don't know the work well enough, and the people who do say that the bar is too high for what is considered bad enough for the series.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 1st 2019 at 11:29:39 AM

PotatoPatato Since: Jun, 2011
#193543: Dec 1st 2019 at 8:19:15 PM

I can do the effort post if you want, but feel free to go ahead if you'd rather do it.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#193544: Dec 1st 2019 at 8:21:56 PM

[tup]Dragwena.

Why so serious?
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#193545: Dec 1st 2019 at 8:23:51 PM

[tup] to Picasso, Maxwell, and Dragwena

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#193546: Dec 1st 2019 at 8:30:58 PM

[tup] Picasso and Dragwena (I remember you telling me about her about a month ago).

It's Spooky Month!
Scandala Since: Oct, 2018
#193547: Dec 1st 2019 at 9:04:06 PM

Got a candidate for y'all. This is my first time doing this, so be gentle. :P

What's the work?

Persona: The Sougawa Files is a Persona fanfiction written by Arsene_Phantom (my roommate!). The fanfiction essentially writes like a new game in the series - new cast and protagonist, new setting, but same core essentials of a bunch of Persona users battling the monsters of the week. The story follows Rina Oshiro, a Wild Card who can use multiple Personas and founds a team of Persona users called the Freedom Fighters to help battle against Shadows and protect the city she just moved to (Sougawa, if the title didn't give it away).

Their greatest opponent? The leader of a crime syndicate, known as Nobuyuki Itou.

Who is he, and what has he done?

Nobuyuki Itou is an elderly man who leads the largest organized crime group in Sougawa - he's the top dog of the underworld. His backstory is a mystery, but what is known is that he's absolutely ruthless, and what he does during the story only helps to cement this.

Very early on, Nobuyuki starts keeping surveillance on the Freedom Fighters - which I would like to establish are a bunch of teenagers; keep that in mind as you read this. He monitors their lives constantly using Shadows he's managed to control, and uses what he sees to figure out if they're a threat. The instant they start proving to be dangerous to his objectives, he begins to send his goons after them - goons with intent to kill. This is shown onscreen in short villainous intermissions after certain chapters, from Nobuyuki's perspective. Even his own men are afraid of him.

Granted, Nobuyuki's men don't really do the job well - even when he starts sending them in greater numbers, they're played for laughs. However, Nobuyuki himself is not, and is presented as a serious danger to the Freedom Fighters at all times. Coupled with that, he ALSO has a personal assassin named Arata pose as a butler for Rina, and uses him to obtain even more information on her - and eventually makes Arata attempt to turn the Freedom Fighters against each other, tearing them apart from the inside. Nobuyuki's cruelty despises Arata enough that he starts having conflicting loyalties, which leads to him joining the Freedom Fighters after they defeat his Shadow.

Speaking of Arata, brief talk about him - later it's revealed that Nobuyuki raised Arata like a son. Sounds great, right? Except for the fact that he raised Arata to be an assassin since he was a child. He became an assassin right from birth, all to serve this crime lord's twisted ambitions. To top it all off, it's reeeeeally debatable how much Nobuyuki actually cared about Arata, because the instant he learns of his betrayal he pretty much loses it and never stops to think maybe his behavior had to do with it.

However, that's not covering undoubtedly the biggest strike against him. Shortly before the Freedom Fighters go to confront Arata's Shadow, Nobuyuki waits for Rina to leave her home and then personally barges in, trashes the place, and beats her beloved sister Furuta to near-death. He leaves a threatening note for her - while Nobuyuki's attack on her home is offscreen, Rina arriving home to see her sister nearly dead and her home destroyed is not. Furthermore, Nobuyuki's letter threatens that if Rina goes after Arata, he'll murder all of her loved ones and then kill her. She goes anyway, but the team ends up moving into a safe house until Nobuyuki is dealt with because they fear for their safety.

One more time: Keep in mind everyone except Arata is a teenager.

Eventually, the confrontation with Nobuyuki does roll around, and he proves to be every bit as scary in person. When the Freedom Fighters call him out on his behavior, he dismisses it with logic like "if there are bugs tainting your crops, you eliminate them" - logic a downright psychopath would use. He fights them (again, with intent to kill) and does eventually lose, but even though he knows he's beaten, he tries to kill Rina with a glass shard from a broken window - which leads to him being shoved out the window reflexively. Even as he falls to his death, he's still screaming threats at Rina.

To top it all off, it's implied he's killed a lot of people before. Granted, these are only implications and aren't as concrete as the stuff above, but consider it the cherry on top?

Any mitigating factors?

Very flimsy ones at best. Nobuyuki's motivations are to take control of Sougawa and guide it to a new light via his rule - seems noble, but his definition of "ruling" is imposing very strict laws that would make everyone miserable and killing off any rebels. There are also vague implications that he had some sort of tragic past, but they're never touched upon and don't soften his actions in any way. Doesn't reform, either. As mentioned, he's literally still threatening Rina's life as he's falling to his death. Even though he seems to treat his grunts well, it's obvious he doesn't care for them much - when his second in command runs off, he doesn't care in the slightest.

His relationship with Arata could be argued, but I covered that earlier.

I mean, he gives his crime guys medical attention, I guess? Does that count?

How is he in context of the story?

Literally every other villain so far is played sympathetically due to being a Shadow Self; they're all born from the feelings people have when trapped. For example, one of them has taken on a nihilistic stance due to feeling like he can't be a hero with real-world responsibilities, or another one falling into depression because nobody shares her worldview. All of them reform at the end, too, and become the Personas of the party members. None of them directly threaten the party's families or safety, and only present threats when the party goes after them - it comes off more as self-defense than anything, with maybe the exception of Arata's Shadow (and even then, everything else said here still applies).

Nobuyuki? He's a constant threat, actively tries to kill the Freedom Fighters just for rescuing their friends at every opportunity (albeit indirectly)... I'd say he's a ton darker than the previous villains. There was a group of criminals beforehand, but they're secondary characters whose actions aren't shown (they're more used to help propel a different character's motivations into the limelight) and are never shown with any killing intent. They don't even have names, so, eh?

Last thing worth mentioning: Nobuyuki's second in command, Yuudai Honda, really helps highlight how evil Nobuyuki is. Yuudai is a bumbling dude who's kind of silly and has some of the funniest lines in the story. Meanwhile, Nobuyuki's deadly serious - there's maybe one joke surrounding him. Knight of Cerebus, big time.

Conclusion:

Pretty vile guy to me, personally.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#193548: Dec 1st 2019 at 9:40:59 PM

Tentative [tup] Itou.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#193550: Dec 1st 2019 at 10:11:45 PM

[tup] Phi Maxwell. Was going to EP him myself. Oh well.

Oh, and [tup] Dragwena... and abstain on Nobuyuki. I have my concerns about the latter; the fanfiction is not yet finished, and, while he is dead, it has been hinted that the backstory of Nobuyki will be explored later on. His character page also lists him as a Benevolent Boss with a Pet the Dog moment (providing medical attention to his minions)- thought this could easily be Pragmatic Villainy done only because he needs to get on their good side, and not because he genuinely likes them. I know this is your first time, and I would hate to ruin your EP or whatever, but these are valid concerns that I feel cannot be overlooked.

Edited by MasterN on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:01:36 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

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