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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#192702: Nov 23rd 2019 at 10:20:38 PM

Alright so just to let you all know I'll being going on a trip to Maui for the annual Maui Invitational Basketball Tournament held there. My flight leaves tomorrow and I'll been until Thanksgiving ends I'll still try to cast my votes on candidates but don't expect any effort posts from me until I come back.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#192703: Nov 23rd 2019 at 10:38:24 PM

[tup]Solomon

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#192706: Nov 24th 2019 at 12:32:47 AM

Second candidate from Battlefield 3: The Russian

Who is Faruk Al-Bashir?

Self-proclaimed President and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Iran, Faruk Al-Bashir led a coup against the Iranian government after an earthquake and with the help of Solomon, managed to establish his own oppressive government, who started a wave of propaganda against the West, while allowing Al-Bashir continuing his takeover of Middle East. Creating his own People's Liberation and Resistance (or PLR) movement, Al-Bashir brainwashed and indoctrinated countless people, both adult and children, to join his army, with some of the serving as suicide bombers, leading his own destructive war against the US, reducing his own cities to rubble, it goes so bad that many of his people, who joined to his cause out of loyalty, now having a second thoughts and only stay with him out of fear. Building many camps across Iran, Al-Bashir has his men executing and torturing people, there, mutilating them on camera (although sometimes they do this on the streets). Later on he come into contact with Amir Kaffarov, he buys various weaponry from him, including nukes. As US forces hunt him down, while GR fight off his forces in Iran, Solomon left him, kidnapping the nukes, this is where Blackburn ambushes him on Land Cruiser, leading to a fight between the two. The fight ended up with Blackburn accidently mortally wounding Al-Bashir and then in a hurry trying to find out where the nukes are from him, leading to this exchange:

Al Bashir jerked back into consciousness, panting wheezy bubbles of blood, but he managed a smile.

"Should you be going to all this trouble? Or are you planning to bring me to justice?"

He coughed up the blood pooling in his mouth. Blackburn looked for the entry wound, found it in his neck. Blood was pulsing out of it. Blackburn jammed his thumb in it, yelling to Campo.

"Tourniquet!"

"Forget about me, soldier. It's you who are done for. All of you."

His eyes swivelled again. Blackburn pumped his chest, banging life back into him.

"The suitcase devices - the nukes. Where?"

He shook his head slowly. "It's not me you should be concerned about. I am history. The baton has passed. ."

Campo was on his knees beside Blackburn, stripping the plastic off a tourniquet. "He's bleeding out, stop him talking."

"Try all you want soldier, whatever happens to me you are done for, my friend."

Blackburn put his face close. "The other one who you were with, taking the nukes."

He nodded. "Very good, yes. He will destroy you."

Campo tried to apply the dressing. "He's fucking lost it. He's talking shit."

Blackburn hushed him. "A name. Give me his name."

"His name is death, my friend.' He coughed up more blood. 'Sol-man."

"Solman?"

Bashir's voice was now no more than a gurgling whisper. He used a breath for each syllable. "Sol. . o. . mon."

Heinousness?

Taken over his own country and led a devastating war against the US, reducing his cities to rubble, indoctrinated hundreds of his own people, both young and old to follow his cause and be suicide bombers. Also lead his people in torturing and mutilating countless people on the streets and in his camps.

Mitigating Qualities?

None. Characters in PRL noted that he started out as "wanting revenge for his country", but with time become more power hungry and only wanting to take over as much territory as he can. Before his death he did told Blackburn that Solomon has the nukes, but even then he openly hoped that Solomon will succeeds in killing as many Americans as he can with his nukes.

Conclusion?

I will say Yes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192707: Nov 24th 2019 at 12:37:59 AM

[tup] Battlefield dudes, and the image as well.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#192708: Nov 24th 2019 at 12:46:53 AM

[tup]Bashir

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#192710: Nov 24th 2019 at 1:41:48 AM

I now realize that i have forgotten to add images to my EP of Chang here.

So, here they are, images of what China reduces to under Chang's leadership and burning US ships that Chang has destroyed.

ErikModi Knight Bachelor from Where ComStar can't find me. Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Knight Bachelor
#192711: Nov 24th 2019 at 2:30:43 AM

My drafts, feedback encouraged.

  • BattleTech: In a franchise that runs on Gray-and-Gray Morality, the few truly vile characters stand out.
    • Stefan Amaris is pretty much entirely responsible for the setting diving into Forever War for the next 300 years and counting. Lord of the Periphery nation the Rim Worlds Republic, Amaris set about getting revenge for the Star League clubbing the Periphery nations in the Reunification Wars two hundred years earlier. Worming his way into the confidence of young Richard Cameron, Amaris became his friend and confidant, then encouraged the young man's ambition. Richard soon stoked the Periphery nations into revolt with punishing taxes, and Amaris secretly funded the Periphery in order to tie down the bulk of the Star League Defense Force in police action, "kindly" offering his own Rim Worlds Republic troops to man empty SLDF garrisons. Then Amaris brought Richard an exquisite laser pistol as a gift, which Amaris used to shoot Richard in the head, then kill the entire Cameron family, leaving their bodies locked in the throne room to rot. Shutting down communications and rigging elections, Amaris became Director-General of the Terran Hegemony, but quickly dropped all pretense of legitimacy and declared it the Amaris Empire. Like all good despots, Amaris squeezed his population mercilessly, his mercenaries sacked Rome, his troops committed atrocities like like of which had not been seen before or since. He turned his back on the Periphery allies who had set up his victory, and they responded in kind. Even his own Rim Worlds Republic was left at the mercy of Aleksandr Kerensky and the SLDF with whatever troops and commanders Amaris hadn't brought to the Hegemony with him. When Aleksandr Kerensky led the Star League Defense Force in retaking the Hegemony planet by planet, Amaris pulled his forces back to focus defense on Terra, nuking the planets behind him just to stall the SLDF by forcing them to tend to the nuked populations. Finally, Kerensky dethroned Amaris, executing him and his family once he learned what Amaris had done to anyone with so much as a drop of Cameron blood. Amaris' body was donated to science, cryogenically preserved as proof he was really dead. The Amaris Coup led directly to the Succession Wars as the Great Houses fought for the vacant throne of First Lord, the SLDF leaving the Inner Sphere to eventually become the Clans, and the Department of Communications to become ComStar and, eventually, the Word of Blake.
    • Khan Jason Karrige of Clan Widowmaker holds an unspecified grudge against Khan Sarah McEvedy, and by extension Clan Wolverine. Helped by the fact that Clan Wolverine is making themselves "the nail that sticks up farthest," Karrige formed an anti-Wolverine cabal in the Grand Council, slipped spies into Clan Wolverine, and "manipulated" Nicholas Kerensky into forming the Clan Watch (something Nicholas had wanted to do anyway). Karrige helped push things to a breaking point regarding a Brian Cache found on Wolverine land, and had two of his warriors steal a nuclear warhead from the cache and smuggle it into the Wolverine city of Great Hope. Nicholas decreed a Trial of Absorption on Clan Wolverine, and as Karrige and his Widowmakers marched on Great Hope, supervised by Nicholas himself, Karrige detonated the nuke, killing hundreds of thousands of Wolverine civilians (and the two Widowmakers who'd smuggled it in) to make it look as though the Wolverines had been desperately trying to kill the ilKhan. This led to the accidental nuking of the Snow Raven capitol of Dehra Dun and the Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolverine. Karrige ultimately paid for his duplicity. Nicholas (with a little help from Sarah McEvedy) realized Karrige had been responsible for the nuking of Great Hope, and gave Wolverine Khan the small piece of justice of killing Karrige. With a 'Mech-mounted Enhanced PPC. As Nicholas rewrote the events to suit his vision for the Clans, Karrige was listed as killed during the Trial of Annihilation, his genetic legacy "tragically" lost. No warriors would carry Karrige genes or earn a Karrige Bloodname. And not long after, Clan Widowmaker was Absorbed by Clan Wolf, effectively vanishing save for Natasha Kerensky's penchant for spider heraldry.

Edited by ErikModi on Nov 24th 2019 at 3:53:31 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#192712: Nov 24th 2019 at 2:34:52 AM

Thus, the Complete Monsters the setting does have stand out.

This phrase looks kinda off.

Also, probably need to trim the writeups a bit.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Nov 24th 2019 at 1:35:55 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#192714: Nov 24th 2019 at 2:40:54 AM

Here's a recommendation for the header

Edited by papyru30 on Nov 24th 2019 at 3:42:50 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192715: Nov 24th 2019 at 3:20:54 AM

Also, I'll ask again: Is the way the Periphery was treated portrayed as making Amaris as bad as he is?

ErikModi Knight Bachelor from Where ComStar can't find me. Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Knight Bachelor
#192716: Nov 24th 2019 at 3:43:55 AM

@ACW: Not really. That's ostensibly his motive, and House Amaris always felt it was their destiny to eventually pay the Star League back for the Reunification War, but Amaris was nothing more or less than a power-hungry madman (his mother did indoctrinate him as a child with the idea that his ancestors had basically been bullied by big bad guys from Terra, but Amaris was clearly smart enough to separate childhood fables from real history, and the reality is somewhat more complex). The Reunification War made the Camerons and Star League his target, but he was just the kind of guy who was going to do something big and horrible with his life. And then there's the fact that 200 years went by after the Reunification War with none of the Periphery nations really trying any serious "revenge," and the fact that a lot of the horrible stuff was done by the Great Houses, not the Star League proper (The Free Worlds League adhered to the Ares Conventions in their part of the war, and maintains the best relations with the Periphery to this day as a result), and Amaris targeting the Star League and Terran Hegemony is clearly just a bid to sit in the most powerful chair in human space (not that he ever literally did. . . using the throne room as a tomb for all the Camerons he murdered). There's also this quote:

As a citizen of the Outworlds Alliance and a descendant of the Rim Worlders, I had hoped that in the course of our research on this volume I might find some mitigating factor to modify history's judgement of my most famous countryman. I regret to say that I have found none. As far as Amaris is concerned, the ancient slogan applies: Ig fallou blaos, dem ressensu glottuo. ("What you see is what you get," or, literally, "if you catch this, you will have to eat it.") Amaris may have been worse than even past historians have claimed. — Anastasia Marcus, Historical Director, Davion Research Project, ComStar Research Archives, Terra, 3028 (From the House Davion (The Federated Suns) Sourcebook).

EDIT: Modified the opening line. I felt those drafts were probably too long, but not sure what to cut to still have them be sensible.

Edited by ErikModi on Nov 24th 2019 at 3:49:17 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192717: Nov 24th 2019 at 4:12:59 AM

Alright, I'll solidify my yes for Amaris then.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#192718: Nov 24th 2019 at 4:21:15 AM

Yes to Bashir.

Have fun G.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 24th 2019 at 8:21:06 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#192719: Nov 24th 2019 at 4:34:09 AM

[tup] to Solomon and Faruk Al-Bashir.

Enjoy the basketball G.

Edited by MGD107 on Nov 24th 2019 at 4:37:14 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192721: Nov 24th 2019 at 6:46:41 AM

Erik, see if ~Tropers/{{43110}} is willing to help you trim the Battle Tech ones.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#192722: Nov 24th 2019 at 7:03:44 AM

Yes to Solomon and Al-Bashir. Have fun, G.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#192723: Nov 24th 2019 at 7:10:13 AM

Another Battlefield candidate

What's the work?

Battlefield 4: Countdown to War is a non-canon prequel novel to Battlefield 4 video game. It tells a story of how Chang come to power and how China started a war with the US. It follows CIA agent Laszlo W. Kovic and his investigation of a conspiracy within China's government.

My first candidate is this version of Admiral Chang Wei.

Who is Admiral Chang Wei?

A respected Admiral within Chinese military and regarded hero, Chang was always hated the idea of US policing Chinese's borders and US' influences in China. When Jin Jie started getting popular among people and was on his way to become the new leader of China, Chang devises a plan to spread the xenophobic hatred among Chinese. First he hired Tsu Yuntao to rig one of North Korean and have him lure US forces to a meeting, where he was blown up and North Korean forces killed most of the US squad, which Cheng turned into a proof of American intervention by making it look like Chinese fought Americans. Then he has Tsu sneak up a bomb into a place where Anti-American protests take place, killing dozens of people, solely so he could blame Americans for it. Later on, as Kovic got captured by Tsu, Wei visited him and revealed his motivation through his speech:

"Four times that of the United States. And the average American consumes fifty times more of the earth's resources than a Chinese. Imagine what would happen if we allowed every one of those Chinese to consume at the same rate. Your so-called values will kill our nation. I'm not going to let that happen. You've fooled our politicians into letting the capitalist genie out of the bottle. I'm going to put it back."

"Agent Kovic, do you know how old our civilization is? When your continent was still overrun by savages with feathers through their noses, China had invented gunpowder, the compass, the clock, the printing press. Before Western meddlers came and corrupted us with their opium, China had bestowed a good living on a fifth of the world's population."

"Jin Jie represents everything that is sick and corrupt in this country. His so-called "progressive" ideology will destroy what's left of our system. His weak will has allowed him to be seduced by the mirage of American superiority. He's just another instrument of Western humiliation. It is time to turn back the clock, to bring order back to our society. America is a threat and must be treated as such. You are the enemy." Chang's voice became shriller with each sentence until he was shouting into Kovic's face, spraying him with his sulphurous saliva.

He turned to Tsu.

"Squeeze everything out of him and then post the remains back to the White House."

After that he leaves, to prepare to plant a bomb in a place, where Jin Jie gathered his followers, in an attempt to kill him and as many of his followers as possible (which were hundreds). As the bomb went off and killed most of the people and injured Jin, Kovic and Hannah (the Chinese agent) extract Jin to a place, where all foreigners and "undesired people" were about to be shipped off from China, only for Chang's forces to attack it, in hopes to kill Jin, leading to many deaths. As Kovic and Hannah carried Jin to a helicopter and escaped, Chang started his war upon the US and the rest of the world.

Heinousness?

Was behind the murder of hundreds and started a war with the US. For a non-canon novel, I think he passes.

Mitigating Qualities?

Chang claims to want to liberate his country of foreign influence, but he kills far more of his own people (even his own supporters) than any "enemy" he talks about, his speeches are more concerned about what is wrong in China for him and he doesn't care about any other people, who get hurt. Jin Jie was never shown or implied to be connected to the West and he openly shown to actually improving the lives of the Chinese, the main reason Chang hated him, was because he wasn't as aggressive to the West and supported more peaceful methods. He is simply out here for himself, never showing any care for Chinese people in general and more concerned about "China becoming too much like the West".

Conclusion?

I will say Yes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192724: Nov 24th 2019 at 7:16:18 AM

This Chang seems like an easy yes. What happens to him?

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#192725: Nov 24th 2019 at 7:17:22 AM

[up]Nothing. He succeeds in taking over the country and starts a war with the US.


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