During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Chase Maddigan: You by no means have to so feel no obligation, but if you'd like I would be happy for you to handle Unicron's write-up if he is approved, as you have done very well with write-ups of his other incarnations. I will be happy enough to see him go up in itself whether I do the write-up or not, so if you happen to want to, he's all yours should be be approved.
If not that is fine as well, however, again no pressure or obligation.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Hey, about Black Battler. From what I remember, he is the physical embodiment of the Battler Culprit theory- the theory that Battler was behind the Rokkenjima Massacre. Does that not mean he lacks agency, if he was born from rumors and tall tales? Umineko: When They Cry can be a Mind Screw with that stuff, but still. Also, I remember Evatrice being rejected for a similar reason.
Edited by MasterN on Nov 21st 2019 at 9:41:08 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Unicron, and you know what I'll be a bit lenient and give Mendozaa one to. Uncertain, but hey I do lean more to it counting then not.
So, has anyone ever been shock when they check a series that has already listed CM, they still find more candidates that are overlook? I stumbled a few of them before and I do get curious why they were never propose before. That's just me.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - GiselleHey everyone, I know it's really late but I can't just get the thought of effort posting this character out of my head so I'm just gonna do it
So this is my third attempt at effort posting a character (third if you count my rewrite of The Bone Collector).
What's the work?
The Intruder is a 2019 thriller film starring Dennis Quaid about a young couple buying a house only to realize that it's previous owner is not who he seems.
Who's the character? What does he do?
Charlie Peck is a middle aged man selling his house in Napa Valley and plans on moving to Florida to live with his daughter.
Scott and his wife Annie are interested in buying the house and first encounter Charlie when he shoots and kills a deer. At first, Charlie seems like a friendly, if odd, person who is amiable with the couple, and gains Annie's sympathy when he tells her that his wife died of cancer. However it soon becomes clear that the guy isn't exactly mentally stable when he grows obsessed with keeping a eye on the place.
Charlie continues to show up at the house unannounced to mow the law and berate workers installing a security system. Scott's friend Mike suspects that Charlie is stalking them, a suspicion which turns out to be true, when he watches Scott and Annie having sex without their knowledge. A neighbor then tells Scott that Charlie's wife actually committed suicide, which prompts Scott to have Mike investigate Charlie. Charlie then runs Scott off the road while he's jogging, putting him in the hospital.
Meanwhile, Charlie grows a disturbing fixation on Annie, and even spies on her while she's taking a shower. When Charlie visits Annie, Mike goes to check on her, but is confronted by Charlie, who kills him with a axe. Scott contacts Charlie's daughter Cassidy who reveals that she isn't living in Florida like Charlie said she was, and is in fact trying to stay as far away as possible from her father because it turns out that he actually killed his wife because she threatened to divorce him and take the house.
Charlie had in fact, been living in underground chamber underneath the house the entire time and has stored Mike's body. Charlie attempts to rape Annie, but Scott shows up in time to save her. Charlie than attempts to kill the two but they manage to overpower him and take his gun. When Scott holds Charlie at gunpoint, Annie calls the police and tells them, "My husband just shot an intruder". Scott than shoots Charlie as he begs for Annie's mercy
Heinousness
Charlie is the only antagonist, so there's not much competition. He only has 2 kills to his name which isn't that impressive as far as C Ms goes, and only one of them happens on screen. Though one of those kills was his own wife, and of course there's that the fact that he attempted to rape Annie. Hell, even his own daughter called him a monster, and stated that if she ever saw him again she would kill him.
Mitigating Factors
Charlie is completely insane, but I'm not sure if mental illness counts as a mitigating factor. He also seems genuinely fond of Annie, but that is of course ruined by the aforementioned rape attempt and his attempt to kill both her and Scott.
Conclusion
Honestly, I'm not quite sure. A part of me thinks he should count, but another part doesn't, so I'll just leave it up to you guys
I'll give a yes to Mendoza. Seems he only cares about the cultists insomuch as he has control over them.
I'll hold off on cutting Goddard until Mendoza's written up and just have that replace.
Unicron. Third? for John Noble after Scarecrow & Brainiac.
Got it.
Edited by ACW on Nov 22nd 2019 at 3:30:06 PM
Unicrom and Mendoza
@acw: Slot Unicrom at the top of the transformers prime group. Hes the Greater-Scope Villain of the show.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I'm home now! And now it's the time that all you waiting for. Discussion for Death Stranding.
Now, let's start to tell if anyone counts or not. Personally, I almost thought that no one counted in this Video Game. Yes, Cliff and the real Big Bad, Samantha Amelie Strand (which will be a subject for my Magnificent Bastard EP), is a million years away from this trope due to their redeeming qualities they possessed and Cliff doesn't even breach the heinous mark.
Amelie's second in command, Higgs, however...I initially thought he doesn't count due to him being controlled by Amelie. However, I got a PM by Ultimate Demon Beast 65 regarding the journals that I overlook, and after reading those journals via Death Stranding wikia...I think Higgs deserved a second look and regardless if he's downvoted or not, I believe he's worth for discussing.
What's the work?
Death Stranding is a recent game made by Hideo Kojima released in 2019 after the dispute between Konami. The story tells us about Sam Porter Bridges, an independent porter who live in a post apocalyptic America due to a cataclysmic event that altered the rules of live and death.
However, he ended up joining an organization called Bridges with the intention on remaking America from the scratch and to that end, Sam was tasked to build Chiral Network, a massive digital system that when completed will allow instantaneous communication between the isolated city-states of America, by delivering several things to said isolated cities and bring hope to America while also attempting to rescue Sam's sister who become the new president of America, Amelie, who is stranded at the beach.
Needless to say though, Sam's task isn't that easy as there are several creatures known as BTs or better known as Beach Things, which is an otherworldly beings that started cropping up whenever people died and then there are terrorist organization from Edge Knot City who strongly opposes America known as Homo Demens. Fortunately, Sam was helped by a Bridge Baby (A baby that could detect Beached Things) named Lou in order to make the delivery easier.
Anyways, enough with the story, today I'm going to talk about one of the members of Homo Demens and meet Higgs Monaghan everyone!
Who is He/What Has He Done
Now, long story short, before Higgs become the member of Homo Demens, he was raised by his abusive uncle before he killed him in self-defense which caused him receiving a supernatural power that could detect the BTs. Now, in his adulthood, Higgs become a member of Fragile's Speed Express as a courier and tried his best to connect and unite other people of United Cities of America and even the whole world.
That is when he met with Amelie however, Higgs began to change. You see, Higgs is still a well-intentioned man at best because after meeting with Amelie, Higgs assuming that he could reshape the world with her (The world where people are free to do whatever as they please). However, as he saw a lot of voidout and B Ts, Higgs then began to change his perspective that life is totally meaningless and attempts to usher the end of the world.
Because of this, Higgs then become one of the members of Homo Demens and you see, they were a terrorist group that also kill several people which leave them in necrosis and leave a huge crater. Higgs is truly responsible of the destruction of Middle and South Knot City which stained Fragile Express's reputation because he had a monopoly on Fragile Express before joining said terrorist group.
This of course, angered the current head of Fragile express, Fragile, who then confronts Higgs. When she got confronted by Fragile, she then orders her to strip and then using his ability to cause a Timefall (A rain that could accelerate the progress of time within nearly all it comes into contact with) while also licking her face. Higgs then gave Fragile a Sadistic Choice by sending the nuke to an empty place in order to save the South Knot City or by killing herself (iirc) and even if she saved South Knot City, Higgs taunt Fragile that she will be remembered as a Nutjob.
Higgs first met Sam by trying to buried him and his companion into a tar and summoning some monsters to get rid of Sam. Even if he manages to escape at the end, Higgs still tried his best to get rid of him because he was in the way such as summoning several tar beasts or sending a nuke to the Bridge's headquarters which would kill Sam and his companions .
The last time Sam met with Higgs however, is when Sam went into Edge Knot City to connect the last Chiral Network (iirc) and when they met with each other again, Higgs then propose a sadistic game of Cat and Mouse on finding Amelie because if someone found her first, one of the two could usher the end of the world.
You see, Amelie herself is revealed to be the sixth Extinction Entity who will bring the end of the world and Higgs desired that power considered the fact that in his view, the live of the world is long overdue. And yes, when Higgs managed to get to Amelie first, he created an Extinction Entity via Emily to usher the end of the world and when Sam stopped his plan? he shoot both Sam and Lou while leaving both of them to death.
However, miraculously, both Sam and Lou survived and then tried to stop Higgs once and for all who is now on Amelie's beach in order to bring the end of the world once again. However, Sam managed to deliver a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown towards that bastard and let Fragile killed him once and for all. However, in the end, Higgs committed suicide, lamenting on how pointless his actions were.
Although on bonus note: Higgs actually has a pseudonym named Peter Englert the Pizza guy who ordered Sam to do some incredibly difficult delivering Pizza missions just to screw with Sam so yeah...
Heinous Standard
Now, make no mistake, Amelie is revealed to be the real Big Bad of the story as she is the Extinction Entity who tries to bring the end of the world. Her crimes are not limited with that though as she is the person who created Homo Demens in the first place. However, unlike Higgs, she is...Rather conflicted on starting the end of the world. And yes, the last president of America, Bridget Strand also contributes to the heinous standard by experimenting on Bridge Babies, which is a bit illegal, but she did this for greater good.
Higgs however? I might say that he passes the heinous standard with a skin of his teeth considered his willingness to attempt Omnicide and the one who made Homo Demens even worse than before. Higgs is also...A bit personal towards Fragile and rather sadistic with the characters he came across especially on Sam.
If you ask me? I could compare Higgs and Amelie with James Fitzroy (A candidate that I approved) and Sarah Hawkins from Call of Cthulhu: The Official Video Game where Fitzroy willingly tried to cause the end of the world while Sarah herself is conflicted as hell. This is similar with Higgs and Amelie so yeah...Sounds like an easy keep right? However, there are some huge hurdles that I will dissect in this section:
Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors
Okay, I'm not going to sugarcoat or downplay his redeeming qualities and let's start with the one that almost made me did not considered Higgs until I read his journal: First thing first, it is stated that he used to be a good person before well...Meeting with Amelie and become a member of Homo Demens.
And that is true, in the journals, it is stated that Higgs did tried his best to connect with people across the world and even when meeting with Amelie, he also wanted to reshape the world so that he could liberate the people of America, painting him as a Well-Intentioned Extremist who wanted to make not only America, but also humanity good again.
This of course, led to the elephant in the room: Higgs being brainwashed by Amelie so that she could further her own plans. And yes, this could screws Higgs moral agency and I don't blame you if you ended up interpreting that. However, this argument? Can be refuted when you read some of his journal entries where Higgs was actually aware that Amelie was conflicted to bring the end of the world and rebuild it from the scratch and this is the hint where Higgs is revealed to not to be brainwashed at all:
"I'm struggling to see her angle. Why even pretend to rebuild? Why rail against the inevitable? If there's another layer to this, I can't work it out... and I'm getting sick and tired of trying. If she's not gonna let me in on her plans, I'm gonna have to assume the worst and take matters into my own hands. Give humanity the coup de grâce myself. Just need the power to do it..."
This is from Journal 12
btw. And yes, Higgs loses his redeeming qualities as a WIE after he became a Straw Nihilist who tried to eradicate the humans from the face of the Earth. Now that argument about Higgs being brainwashed has been settled, he should be an easy keep right?
But...There is another hurdle that could prevent Higgs qualifying and how should I respond this?
◊
Alright, let's start with the second hurdle, Higgs' past. It is stated that Higgs had a Dark and Troubled Past considered that he was raised by a truly abusive uncle who constantly beat Higgs that I guess warp Higgs perception of the world. As far as his relationship with his uncle goes...Well, at one point in his journal, Higgs said that he owed him his life and his powers. I'm not sure if that's mitigating considered that Higgs murdered his own uncle at the end before burning his body in the incinerator. That and I might cutting him some slack because I think he said it before well...He loses his redeeming qualities around Journal 11 and become an uncaring Omnicidal Maniac. But hey, take that as you will if his relationship with his uncle is mitigating or not.
Another hurdle is that I got a PM by Delphine as she said that Higgs affability was rather...Sincere and I don't blame them if she had a different interpretation. But honestly, from my experience with Higgs? While yes, he's affable and jovial at times, he comes across as more of a psychopath more than anything else who has no hesitation to kill Sam or anyone who gets in his way and he's more of a Faux Affably Evil person in my books so yeah...
Aside from that, nothing from him I guess.
Final Verdict
Admittedly, Higgs is going to be my hardest proposal and I'm still on fence with him tbh and it's okay to vote him down (Especially with Delphine's case). However, after reading the journals in which I overlooked, I think I might reconsider him again to litigate his role as a Complete Monster and if he ended up being downvoted, so be it and I tried my best to give the information for this EP and until then, thoughts?
And yes, special thanks to ~Ultimate Demon Beast 65 for making me aware regarding the existence of those journals.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 22nd 2019 at 1:43:31 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Oh yeah, regarding the EP, Higgs forcing Fragile to run through timefall wasn't a choice of killing herself to save the city, it was a choice of saving the city and rapidly aging her body except her face. He knew she would live, and never implies she would die from it.
Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Nov 22nd 2019 at 1:36:17 AM
RIP KissAnime.I’ll abstain on Higgs for the moment. I’ll wait until I hear others opinions on Higgs before I cast my vote
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
to Higgs
I will admit that there are some conflicting factors to him, but I ultimately think he counts.
Even if the Timefall wouldn't kill a person, it's shown at the start of the game that it hurts like hell when your skin and bare flesh are exposed to it. So Fragile running in that rain naked would have been torture for her, like running through acid rain, and Higgs knows that, purposely covering her face to mock her.
The stuff with his uncle honestly doesn't save him in my opinion as he ultimately became even worse than him. And while admitting he owes him his powers and skills sounds charming, it doesn't mean he didn't hate him.
As for the Affably Evil stuff, that doesn't really mean much when you lick people's faces like a sexual predator and laugh and mock people's misery and hopelessness. I honestly reckon he would have tried to rape Fragile if she didn't have DOOMS. Also despite being beaten by Sam and declaring him the winner of their fight, the minute Fragile appears to them he tries to use his powers on them.
He does start off as a Well-Intentioned Extremist yes but he ultimate gives into nihilism and decides that humanity is screwed and that the world and life itself should just end.
And also like Elfen mentioned, unlike Amelie who is conflicted about causing the Last Stranding and just believes she's doing humanity a mercy Higgs wants to do so simply because of his nihilistic nature and also due to the power high he received from Amelie.
There's also his god complex, his "I am the particle of God that permeates all existence" sctick which to me states that he sees causing the Last Stranding as the way to be seen as a god, to flaunt his power towards others and make them think he's some sort of death god who will help bring about the extinction of life on Earth.
Edited by UltimateDemonBeast65 on Nov 22nd 2019 at 2:18:50 AM

As someone who did the original effort post for Unicron way back when we first split up his entry and voicing my doubts about him, I have to say
considering the new information.
Yeah, I had been thinking about the Covenant of Primus maybe clarifying his moral agency, and that version of Unicron was one of my earlier EPs. But with the new details present, this version clearly passes.
As a side note, if this version is voted up by the thread, it will be the first incarnation of Unicron to count that I didn't do an entry for.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Nov 21st 2019 at 11:04:29 AM