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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#192026: Nov 18th 2019 at 9:29:42 AM

So yesterday's episode of Mr. Robot concluded one character story arc and I think we got ourselves a CM. This villain is kind of portrayed sympathetically in his final moments, but at the same time his past actions contradict what his redeeming qualities would have been, so I'd say he's a pretty clear keeper.

However, I wonder if I should EP him in two weeks as the character won't return. But at the same time, Mr. Robot is notorious for its unexpected twist and turns that can happen anytime, so perhaps I should wait until the season ends? I want to know what other users think I should do.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#192027: Nov 18th 2019 at 9:33:45 AM

[tup] to Crossroads and Ryu

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#192028: Nov 18th 2019 at 9:34:15 AM

Yes to Ryo. Wait till the season ends for Robo

AlmightyKingPrawn I can chase the wind, I can race the rain from Down at Fraggle Rock *clap clap* Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
I can chase the wind, I can race the rain
#192029: Nov 18th 2019 at 9:38:38 AM

[tup] Crossroads, Ryo

She/her. Profile pic is by Richard Michael Gomez @StarmansArt. Please watch Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. https://youtu.be/Vm92JNgPbqk
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#192030: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:03:54 AM

Yay to Crossroads and Ryo.

RIP KissAnime.
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#192031: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:29:50 AM

[tup] Crossroads and Ryo.

@Tropers/43110: While the demon did influence Ellen, she already killed her parents beforehand, and was not all that resistant to his deal. Essentially, she still has agency- this is especially shown when she is offered genuine friendship by Viola, and she could very well have simply confessed the truth to her, and perhaps Viola could have at least tried to help her. Instead, she betrays Viola and does so in the most needlessly sadistic manner, and clearly takes pleasure in what she does. She also, rather than simply coldly killing her victims and saying I Did What I Had to Do, goes out of her way to be as cruel as possible to them and enjoys their suffering, showing that, as much as the demon approves of what she is doing, she does operate somewhat independently from him. As much as she seems to somewhat like the demon, she also states that she hates him at some point, and in general only likes him insofar as he can get her what she wants- not much different than the demon himself. Essentially, her idea of love is that of a narcissist- All Take and No Give. As such, she subverts Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

Did the demon push her into becoming evil? Absolutely? Did she have no input or agency whatsoever? Absolutely NOT.

As much as I sympathize with past!Ellen, I agree that present!Ellen has shed her redeeming qualities, and is thus a CM.

On another note, the Aerbax writeup has too many potholes.

Edited by MasterN on Nov 18th 2019 at 10:40:41 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192032: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:46:18 AM

Yeah, I'll work on the Aerbax one.

MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#192034: Nov 18th 2019 at 12:04:13 PM

I'd like to point out the The Witch's House entries keep switching tenses. I think you have to work on that.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192035: Nov 18th 2019 at 12:26:06 PM

Aerbax:

  • Asheron's Call: Aerbax was once just a common virindi puppet who gained sapience from a freak incident, after which he broke off from the Quiddity to pursue his own experiments, and sees himself as some kind of god who just views everyone else as worthless inferiors to be killed or experimented on. He started by making more powerful versions of existing monsters, before eventually experimenting on humans. His most famous "project" was Martine—an innocent human settler turned into an insane, terrifying Humanoid Abomination—but in one quest in portal space, Lilitha—a famous human archer who had mysteriously vanished decades earlier—is trapped there, and she appears to be a "prototype" of Martine who has been trapped there and subject to hideous experiments for so long she has gone hopelessly insane. Later on, Aerbax would go on to experiment on other virindi, create his "Prodigal Sons", superpowered unique versions of other monsters, before finally turning himself into an Eldritch Abomination.

Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#192036: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:00:54 PM

Can I add my draft for Izmiara? She has a lot more than 5 [tup] by now.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#192037: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:02:06 PM

@Delph Nice Higgs profile pic

[tup] Crossroads and Ryo

Officially abstaining on Ellen and the Demon until 43 finishes reading the diary.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#192038: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:02:15 PM

[up][up][up][up] Made everything present-tense. Oh, and edited the Cat the to make it clear that he did not corrupt her so much as guide her to use her inner evil, making it clear she has agency.

Edited by MasterN on Nov 18th 2019 at 1:10:23 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#192039: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:04:50 PM

Honestly, I have no problem with the Witch's House candidates.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192040: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:12:03 PM

Bootlebat: Yeah, please add it to the Drafts.

Where on the Pathfinder tree shall she go?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#192041: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:27:15 PM

A yes to the Crossroads parasite. Strange one, but we've had weirder (the Bloom, anyone?).

Okay, new H.P. Lovecraft-flavor candidate from an excellent comic I just read.

What's the setting?

Killing Pickman, from Jason E. Becker, Jon Rea and Matt Talbot, is a six-chapter graphic novel about a depressed, cynical homicide detective named William "Bill" Zhu and his partner Raimi. Zhu is embittered mostly because of the awful conditions of his job and the grisly murders he's been working for years. Said murders trail back to a seemingly-unassuming house where a seemingly unassuming man named Richard Pickman lives...

Who is Richard Pickman? What has he done?

"Richard Pickman," the title murderer of the story, is introduced as a strange, lithe gentleman who invites Bill into his house for a spot of tea. It takes Will all of a few pages to deduce what Pickman is; Pickman is a lunatic serial killer and a borderline Humanoid Abomination who has long forgotten how long he's actually lived and who he originally was, taking the name of a "little known painter from the early twentieth century".

Pickman made a pledge to the enigmatic demon goddess Lilith, and from then on became a child killer whose murders spanned decades. Over a hundred children had been murdered by Pickman, who abducts them, tortures them with crowns of thorns and literal nail-through-the-hand crucifixions, and is heavily indicated to molest them ("He slept in the basement...with the children") before killing them and offering their souls to Lilith to devour. Bill finally stops him before he can consume his latest victim, putting him behind bars. All of Pickman's surviving victims are catatonic shells of themselves, and Pickman eloquently illustrates his motivations to detective Raimi afterward:

You see, doctor... I don't feel guilt... or compassion. I have no pity. I was born without those things. I was born without love in my heart. Just as Job loved the lord no matter what suffering was inflicted upon him... I hate. I am filled with a hatred for all things... A desire to inflict pain. A desire to kill. How can God call Himself just... How can He call Himself merciful when he creates a man like me? A man beyond redemption. I did not sell my soul to the Devil. It belonged to him from the moment I began growing in my mother's womb.

Of course, Pickman being what he is, being arrested doesn't put him down for long. Pickman uses his horrific influence to warp the minds of everyone who comes in contact with him, driving people to insanity and violence. Pickman makes an officer kill his pregnant wife before hanging himself, drives another woman into murderous violence and suicide, and inspires a series of violent riots and up to sixteen more suicides all as he waits in his cell.

Bill eventually bribes a guard to kill Pickman and said guard sics five of the prison's toughest convicts upon him. Pickman drives them to madness and has them all gruesomely butcher each other instead, turning them upon each other until one blood-soaked survivor with enough willpower to resist him is left. Pickman promptly bites out his throat.

Desperately, Bill and Raimi finally attempt to destroy Pickman themselves no matter the cost. Pickman is abandoned by Lilith, and Pickman's aggrieved all for a second before shrugging it off. Other demon gods to turn to...such as, say, Shub-Niggurath, whom Pickman dedicates himself to in order to break out of prison. Pickman dominates the minds of a squadron of officers sent to kill them and unleashes them on the nearby precinct to start gunning down everyone they come across, shooting down dozens until they're put down.

All of this is a distraction to an earlier promise Pickman made to Raimi; in the dead of night, Pickman pops up in his house, his infant son in hand, preparing to rip out the baby's heart and show it to Raimi. Raimi's ensuing Papa Wolf reaction finally brings Pickman down and Raimi reduces him to hamburger with shotgun blasts, dragging his ragged body to watch as he flushes Pickman's black heart down a garbage disposal, killing Pickman (zing).

Any mitigating factors?

Nope. Read his monologue. That encapsulates Pickman's entire character; he's self-lucid about being a monster, all self-reflection is either sardonic "maybe I'll feel guilt at this!...nah, I doubt it!" or gleeful, sadistic card-carrying. He's as vile as a child killer can get.

Conclusion?

Solid keeper.

Edited by Scraggle on Nov 18th 2019 at 2:45:14 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#192042: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:28:45 PM

[tup]Pickman

Ooh that one IS definitly one for the quote page.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#192043: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:29:02 PM

[tup] Pickman

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#192045: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:40:54 PM

[tup] Richard.

The quote is also worthy.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 18th 2019 at 4:42:34 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#192046: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:41:59 PM

[tup] Pickman

That quote is perfect.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#192048: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:43:53 PM

Pathfinder: Own page? It's up to 7, and 7 fairly lengthy entries.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#192049: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:44:09 PM

Sure to Pickman and his quote.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#192050: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:45:11 PM

[up][up]Unless those entries can be trimmed, I see almost no other option.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 18th 2019 at 4:45:26 AM


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