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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#191802: Nov 16th 2019 at 6:09:25 PM

[tup] Kurenai.

Just watched Fractured (2019). No keepers. Excellent movie, though.

[down][down] Spoilers ahead. The organ trafficking conspiracy was a hallucination of the protagonist, who loves his wife and daughter, even though he is somehow responsible for their deaths. He is legitimately out of touch with reality, and still thinks his family is alive.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 16th 2019 at 10:30:16 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#191803: Nov 16th 2019 at 6:10:08 PM

@Master N I'd prefer to talk regarding it via pms (Or at least my Discord server) thank you.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#191804: Nov 16th 2019 at 6:19:11 PM

[up][up]Why does no one count?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#191805: Nov 16th 2019 at 6:31:38 PM
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#191807: Nov 16th 2019 at 6:55:06 PM

I was thinking. Should we make a comics section on the Power Rangers page? We have made sections for mediums with only keepers before like the film section on the G.I. Joe page. This way only mediums with one keep are in the other section.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 16th 2019 at 8:57:00 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#191808: Nov 16th 2019 at 7:30:23 PM

Well I just finished a Junji Ito manga called Travelogue of the Succubus. Sure, its not Enigma of Amigara Fault, Tomie, Gyo or Uzumaki, but its still a good read. PM me for discussions.

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 16th 2019 at 8:31:45 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#191809: Nov 16th 2019 at 7:39:35 PM

@Lighty: I reserved Outer Worlds, but I resolved that quest in a manner in which I didn't really encounter Clive or learn much about him. Since you seem to be more knowledgeable about the character, feel free to EP him if you think he counts.

[tup]Kurenai

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191810: Nov 16th 2019 at 7:43:50 PM

Thanks, Irrose. I didn't want to step on your toes there.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#191811: Nov 16th 2019 at 7:59:55 PM

[tup]Child Eater And Kurenai

What happened to the image of Red Skull killing the baby (It was the previous image on Marvel page)

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#191812: Nov 16th 2019 at 8:02:58 PM

[up]That incarnation of Red Skull was deemed a cut.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#191813: Nov 16th 2019 at 8:05:13 PM

[up]Ah okay. The image did upset me

Edited by nwotyzal on Nov 16th 2019 at 8:05:24 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#191814: Nov 16th 2019 at 8:31:24 PM

Alright so there is this one character from the BioShock series that I kind of have mixed feelings about this character but felt like she’s at least worth the effort post. She appears in the second installment BioShock 2 and you guys already know her as Sofia Lamb. BTW Sorry if this post is a bit longer than my other ones but I’ll be covering pretty much everything about Sofia Lamb.

Who Is She? What Has She Done?

Sofia Lamb is the Big Bad of BioShock 2 and is the leader of a cult known as the Rapture Family. First appearing in the opening prologue, Sofia arranges to have her own daughter, Eleanor Lamb, captured by Splicers and brought to her so she can conduct experiments to make her a "Utopian", an entity who will be created through large doses of ADAM (basically a drug that can contain memories of others and grants incredible powers by rearranging your DNA but addictive, often disfigures and drives the user insane/homicidal) but this entity will lack any personality of it's own or sense of identity.

Sofia is also aware that her daughter is connected to a Big Daddy (protective golem) by the name of Subject Delta and has a Splicer hit him with a hypnotism Plasmid before stepping out of the shadows at which point she forces him to kill himself with her gun. Eventually Eleanor sets it up so Delta will be revived and save her but it takes about ten years and once Sofia learns this she tries to have him killed.

In these ten years she has experimented on Eleanor, had some little girls captured from the surface and experimented on. Her first attempt at a "Utopian" as Gilbert "Alex the Great" Alexander who she abandoned upon deeming him failure due to being transformed into a giant and insane monster. The man was in love with Sofia and she seemingly was well aware of this so she asked him to be the first attempt at a "Utopian", a process that take a lot of ADAM and in his opinion upon failure worse than death but unable to outright kill himself leading him to make a way for others yet aware his newer personality would kill and have a strong desire to live forcing him to leave audio diaries to assist.

Later Sofia suffocates Eleanor to fatally wound Delta due to their bond but orders him not killed due to knowing he'd be revived through a Vita-Chamber, instead she wants him merely restrained until he does die due to the interrupted bond. Unfortunately for Sofia, Eleanor is able to free Delta and the two work together to stop her. Eventually feed up with the fight Sofia points out to the duo she's forcibly transformed one of their allies, Sinclair, into a Big Daddy to kill Delta while she escapes to the surface and had explosives placed around Rapture to destroy it and Delta permanently.

In this announcement Sofia claims she loves Eleanor and that while Delta will not be allowed to live she'd allow her daughter on but only if she accepts her destiny. Eventually the duo approach the escape pod and set off the final explosive before she can escape, depending on the player choice Eleanor either saves Sofia or purposely drowns her.

In a DLC, Minerva’s Den, set before the main game it's revealed she that one of the female children experiment on and became a Little Sisters had their father try to save him only for him to find to his horror what became of her, Lamb then offered/forced to become a Big Daddy to "be with her" the alternative is to be killed immediately. To add to the horror Little Sisters become Big Sisters as they age but rendered insane and extremely violent which you must fight or even kill to just beat the main game.

Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities? Other Militating Factors?

So I am aware that others believe that Sofia has some morality and/or well intentions, so I will try my best to break them down to explain why I don’t think they are true.

She does seem to believe she is destined to make the world better but her motive is to basically destroy individuality and free will. This is not just for Eleanor but she wants to eventually convert humanity into "Utopians" as well. Based on all her actions I do not think that she is Well-Intentioned Extremist, but just a delusional sociopath with a borderline messiah complex.

Sofia also claims to love all humanity equally but is show to be a hypocrite that is willing to kill anyone if it benefits her shown with how she constantly sends minions to die, trying to kill Delta merely because he was bonded to Eleanor and even has outed Stanley Poole when he tried to hide info from Sofia at which point she leaves him defenseless and tell Delta he could kill him for all she cares. Sofia also constantly talks negative of humanity saying they are selfish and cruel. Even if Delta chooses to spare everyone possible Sofia calls it an act and states only her work can produce a selfless entity.

She also shows no care for her cult the Rapture Family, merely seeing them as useful pawns and plans to extract all their ADAM to infuse in Eleanor. She convinces them this is a good thing as they'll gain "immortality" and "salvation" by fusing their minds with Eleanor. Even realizing her defeat Sofia is more than willing to destroy Rapture while she escapes Rapture with possibly Eleanor if she's going to comply. This means even though she can't harvest their ADAM she willing condoned the death of potentially thousands solely to save herself despite most being part of her cult.

She also never really shows any genuine love for her daughter Eleanor. Throughout the game she treats Eleanor as a guinea pig for her experiments and tool for her legacy. Despite Sofia's claim to love her daughter she was more than willing to harm her and suffocate her to achieve her own goals. As for offering to allow Eleanor join her in the escape pod that's due to her being needed to achieve her goals and was only willing if Eleanor accepted her role in Sofia's plan. In one audio diary she does indeed get emotional when she realized she might need to kill Eleanor, but the problems with this are she continually treated her more as an object/property or pet vs an actual daughter and she constantly states she loves everyone the same so frankly I feel that if anything confirmed she's willing to do anything to her she did to others. Honestly her "love" comes across more across as seeing her as a reflection of her own massive ego and tool to secure her own legacy.

Her supposed sympathy for Delta are ultimately hollow as despite claiming she felt bad for Delta when he's revived and she realized he had sentience, Sofia forcibly converted Sinclair into a Big Daddy under her control, Sinclair asks Delta to kill him and apologies for attacking him despite not being in control. Keep in mind Big Daddies aren't in control and can't talk usually so this is seen as a Fate Worse than Death for Sinclair which he makes abundantly clear since she makes it where he can only talk.

Sofia only asks Eleanor to forgive her right before attempting to suffocate her. Honestly I don’t think that she is showing sincere remorse for any of her actions especially since she never treats her more than a tool and planned to ultimately make Eleanor a creature with no free will but sentience. Sofia always blames others for ruining her vision vs taking responsibility or accepting her theory of people being only selfish as wrong.

If Delta shows mercy to all NPC possible, including the Little Sisters then Eleanor saves Sofia out of her own belief no one is beyond redemption thus everyone deserves mercy. That comes across as more Eleanor being optimistic especially when Sofia never shows doubt in her beliefs, the only other way for her to live is by the "Neutral" ending where Eleanor spares Sofia as a Cruel Mercy in that while she'll live, Sofia will have to live with knowing Eleanor will never join her and that her experiments where ultimately for nothing.

As for Sofia’s feelings about Stanley's actions, she claimed Dionysus Park was her family and it was ruined due to his actions but I say it's basically the same with the Rapture Family as she constantly also referred to it as such. She even admitted to knowing Stanley killed them all and did nothing to him until he helped Delta go forward because it was putting her plans at risk. We don't see any real interaction and given all this I frankly feel not an issue.


Heinousness

Now Bioshock is a very dark series with a pretty high heinous standard, so I’ll do my best to break down each and everyone of the villains dead.


First off Andrew Ryan, He’s not a complete monster he was the one who created Rapture (the main setting of the first two games) and was a openly selfish and cruel man that had his opponents executed and was willing to blow the city up if he lost control. Ryan spared the protagonist, Jack, who he eventually realized was his son and even had it to where the city could be saved if Jack chooses. Instead Ryan only coldly informs Jack he's being manipulated by Frank Fontaine as he forces Jack to kill him with a golf club. Thing is Sofia also has people killed through her cult and planned to eventually sacrifice her cult to get Eleanor to "ascend" into a "Utopian" so Sofia can usher in a new era. His goal was essentially to just maintain control vs Sofia's which is basically one that logically would cost countless lives to repeat the process once finished with Eleanor to humanity as a whole.

Now we have Frank Fontaine the first CM. Fontaine was a con artist that would rise to power as a powerful crime lord in Rapture by selling ADAM and trying to take control of the city through civil wars, arranging vile experiments on orphans to become Little Sisters, creating ADAM infused addicts. To gain trust he builds areas for the lower class citizen and orphanages but secretly experiments on them and making them addicts. Fontaine wanted to gain control of Rapture and later planned to introduce ADAM to the surface world presumably to gain even more power over the world before possibly trying to conquer it. Now Fontaine does manipulate Jack most the game and claims to of lost his family but later admits he never had one before offhandedly contemplating on maybe eventually starting one. Jack is the illegitimate son of Ryan who Fontaine has mentally conditioned and had the aging process temporarily increased to make him an adult prematurely to be the ideal pawn and in a sense his father figure. Thing is I feel Sofia is unique enough to probably not outdo him but stand out enough to count since while Fontaine's end goal would indeed cost a lot of lives hers would be a very large body count and the survivors being essentially driven insane and unable to do anything unless it was for "the greater good". Also keep in mind Fontaine is a bit more sadistic so he's willing to get more hands on while Sofia is more just a manipulative leader who tries to keep hands off whenever possible because she's indifferent towards causing pain.

Finally Zachary Hale Comstock, the second person to be consider CM. Now Comstock gained the ability to travel to other dimensions, oppressed basically all those who weren't white, committed or ordered mass murder, kidnapped at least one individual (his daughter from another dimension). His ultimate goal seems to be to make a floating city and destroy most the world / civilizations below so he can achieve his version of paradise. Honestly of them these two are comparable in a lot of ways but also stand out enough especially given the difference in methods.

Then there are all theses lesser villains that Age previously effortposted.

Yi Suchong - A cruel scientist who created the process for Big Daddies and Little Sisters, conducted cruel experiments on the children partly out of hatred and was the one who mentally conditioned Jack. Lamb has more resources and used his research to replicate most of it for tools to achieve her goal so ultimately not an issue IMO given she used it and produced it more all to further her plans.

J.S. Steinman - An insane doctor who conducted a lot of medical experiments to achieve "perfect beauty" especially if the novels are taken into account. Very low tier and Lamb definitely stands out far more given resources and plans even if she doesn't personally kill with her own hands instead relying on her cult.

Stanley Poole - A reporter who originally got Lamb arrested, got Delta turned into what he is today, had Eleanor sold to become a Little Sister before ultimately destroying Dionysus Park to cover his own ass. Lamb plans are far more reaching, far larger body count attempted and has the resources necessary vs Stanley who has next to nothing so no issue with no goal other than survive.

Final Verdict

Sorry if this effort post is a bit longer than my previous ones, as it took me all day to do it but I needed to list every detail about Sofia her goals, her supposed redeeming features and her part in the heinous standard. In the end I think that she qualifies since her end goal is more unique, basically she's a deluded woman who plans to put humanity into a "Fate Worse Than Death" by conducting experiments involving a lot of ADAM to make humanity intelligent but without free will. However I’m willing to hear other opinion on Sofia on why they think she may or may not qualify. Either way, I rest my case with this EP so I’ll leave the rest to you guys

Edited by G-Editor on Nov 16th 2019 at 6:33:17 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191815: Nov 16th 2019 at 8:37:46 PM

And that's a no, for reasons stated years ago. No, absolutely no. This comes off as an attempt to just say "those redeeming features don't count because she's really bad."

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 16th 2019 at 8:38:50 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#191816: Nov 16th 2019 at 8:59:25 PM

Lamb seems too delusional to make the cut, tbh.note 

In all seriousness, the fact that she actually believes that her actions will benefit anyone make it clear that she isn't completely devoid of altruistic traits, corrupted as said traits are.

[down] That's what I was trying to say. Distorted redeeming qualities are still redeeming qualities.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 16th 2019 at 12:14:55 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191817: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:03:02 PM

Remember: being an evil hypocrite who will sacrifice those around her does not in of itself negate those redeeming qualities.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#191818: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:13:24 PM

I never said Sofia's redeeming qualities were negated.

[down] I occasionally have a tendency to assume that a post following mine that isn't voting on a candidate is directed at me. I will work on overcoming that assumption.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 16th 2019 at 12:22:25 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191819: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:13:49 PM

I didn't say you did, Sky, and it should be obvious to what I was referring to.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#191820: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:21:45 PM

[tdown]Lamb

What would happen if a CM becomes redeemed thanks to brainwashing? do they still qualify because the redemption isn't voluntary?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#191821: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:23:01 PM

[up] We have one...And his name is Madder Red. He redeems himself through brainwashing yet we still qualified him anyway because his redemption wasn't from his own volition. Another one is Barclyss and Darkrai

Also, [tdown] Lamb

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 16th 2019 at 10:24:29 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#191822: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:29:20 PM

Both listed Persona 5 villains were also approved despite going through a Heel–Face Brainwashing. If that trope applies and the brainwashing is completely involuntary, they can still go up.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#191823: Nov 16th 2019 at 9:29:50 PM

[up] got it

Edited by nwotyzal on Nov 16th 2019 at 9:30:11 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#191824: Nov 16th 2019 at 10:20:28 PM

Having played Bioshock 2 to get all the endings? Sofia is a [tdown]. Cruel, sure, but still a Well-Intentioned Extremist, in contrast to Fontaine's pure evilness.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary

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