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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#191701: Nov 15th 2019 at 4:54:46 PM

@Delphine Nice...Will respond to your P Ms soon enough.

Also, thanks for the vote on Nithriel everyone! I'll do her writeup soon enough with Bathory. But there are some candidates I want to bring in my belt before doing that.

Also, sure to Matteo Guendou...Whoops, is this fictional right? Mateo should be enough :3 and the Demon.

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 15th 2019 at 5:56:35 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#191702: Nov 15th 2019 at 4:57:20 PM

[tup] Mateo. And yeah to Omega Red’s pic.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#191703: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:04:41 PM

Yeah to Mateo and as for the already approved candidates can we change this one on Without Remorse?

  • Complete Monster: The protagonist, an ex Navy SEAL named John Kelly, runs afoul of a drug ring run by a man named Henry Tucker. Tucker smuggles high-grade heroin into the Baltimore area inside the bodies of American soldiers killed in Vietnam. He distributes the drugs via a stable of prostitutes that he controls using drugs, rape, and torture. When one of his girls escapes and befriends Kelly, he has her kidnapped, then rapes her, tortures her, and mutilates her corpse, forcing the other girls to watch, before dumping it in a public fountain. As Kelly tracks him down while murdering his people, he grows increasingly desperate, going so far as to kill his own associates out of paranoia, then attempts to kill his remaining girls when they prove to be a security risk. In the end, he is shot down like a dog without pity, and even the police admit that Kelly did something that they themselves might have done were they not bound by the law.

I don't like how it names the protagonist first, since entries should name the candidate before anyone else to avoid the awkward mix up of who it's supposed to be talking about. Maybe just start it with "Henry Tucker smuggles..."?

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#191704: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:07:45 PM

Yes to Mateo.

@Overlord: I'd be willing to hear a case for the Devil Hulk, since it sounds more like an evil entity than a realistic split personality.

Edited by falcontalons on Nov 15th 2019 at 5:09:39 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#191705: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:08:05 PM

[up][up] Yeah, that should DEFINITELY be fixed.

Edited by Michealthehero21 on Nov 15th 2019 at 5:08:20 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#191706: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:10:05 PM

Sure, I'm fine with Henry Tucker's writeup getting fixed.

And fine with Omega Red pic as well.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#191707: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:11:00 PM

Agreed with 43. Yes to Mateo.

Anymore votes on Game Cooler?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#191710: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:54:22 PM

Yo:

  • Without Remorse: Henry Tucker smuggles high-grade heroin into the Baltimore area inside the bodies of American soldiers killed in The Vietnam War. He distributes the drugs via a stable of prostitutes that he controls using drugs, rape, and torture. When one of his girls escapes and befriends the hero, ex-Navy SEAL John Kelly, Tucker has her kidnapped, then rapes her, tortures her, and mutilates her corpse, forcing the other girls to watch, before dumping it in a public fountain. As Kelly tracks him down while murdering his people, he grows increasingly desperate, going so far as to kill his own associates out of paranoia, then attempts to kill his remaining girls when they prove to be a security risk.

Edited by ACW on Nov 15th 2019 at 8:55:28 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#191711: Nov 15th 2019 at 5:58:29 PM

On that note, on Magic Kingdom of Landover.

  • Ben Holiday has had many bitter enemies, but none so vicious or persistent as the witch Nightshade. Part human, part fairy, and all vindictive bitch, Nightshade marked her first appearance by damning Ben's friends to Hell in Magic Kingdom for Sale/Sold, an experience which nearly killed them all. She made two more attempts on his life in The Black Unicorn and Wizard At Large, and after an enchantment forced her to care about him in Tangle Box, responded by trying to murder his wife and kidnap his newborn daughter. It's in Witches' Brew, however, where Nightshade truly comes into her own. She tries to kill Questor Thews, Abernathy, and the Gnome, Poggwydd, and succeeds in kidnapping Ben's daughter Mistaya. Convincing Mistaya that they are friends, she forces the girl to create a series of monsters which she sets loose on Ben, intending that he should either be killed, or driven mad by his constant transformations into The Paladin. When this plan too fails, Nightshade gives Mistaya a poisoned brooch and sends her to hug her father, intending that Ben should die at his daughter's hands. Concerned only with her own pride, Nightshade was willing to cross any line if it meant making Ben suffer.

Maybe change it to "Nightshade is the most vicious and persistent of Ben Holiday's many enemies" or something?

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#191712: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:00:09 PM

Ah, that's an old one, as there's chained pothole.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#191713: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:04:40 PM

[tup] Nithriel

[tup] Mateo Bastos. I wanted to.see this one someday. He's not.fat enought

Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 15th 2019 at 9:05:34 AM

Watch me destroying my country
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#191714: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:14:15 PM

My writeup for Bishop:

Aliens: Colonial Marines and its DLC Stasis Interrupted: Michael Bishop is the face of Weyland-Yutani Corporation, who is the mastermind behind their experiments on Xenomorphs in hopes to create a perfect bio-weapon. Ordering his subordinates to build a massive Origin Facility on Acheron LV-426 moon under very harsh and deadly conditions and capturing Xenomorph Queen to produce Facehuggers, Bishop kidnapped hundreds of colonists for his experiments, turning them into the hosts of the Xenomorphs, which always resulted in their agonizing death. Capturing Corporal Dwayne Hicks, Bishop tortures him for information and after Colonial Marines discover his atrocities, Bishop ordered his troops to destroy their ship, resulting in over 300 of marines dying.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#191716: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:18:59 PM

[tup] Cooler and Madeo

One thing I really should note is that realistic DID alters would have agency. I have at least two relatives and several friends with the condition, and alters may be created with a purpose, but aside from having a deliberate purpose they're whole people with their own unique personalities and agency. Unfortunately, writers don't really recognize that. Think gems from Steven Universe more than Jekyll & Hyde.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#191717: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:34:13 PM

[up] Fair enough, I will propose Devil Hulk then.

Alright, here we go:

Who is the Devil Hulk? What has he done?

Devil Hulk is an evil personality that is emerging within the Hulk. He also sounds like Hulk's abusive father, constantly referring to Hulk as child. After defeating Abomination's servant Mercy, Banner looks in the mirror and sees Devil Hulk looking back at him and Devil Hulk starts to control him. Devil Hulk also claims to be the ultimate evolution of the Hulk.

Devil Hulk takes the guise of Hulk's ally Doc Samson and has him go on missions. At first Devil Hulk just has Hulk dispose of a gas the military has developed to neutralize the Hulk. Later Devil Hulk has Hulk go an escort mission where Hulk is supposed to remove all roadblocks from Doc Samson's path, with the fake Samson claiming to he is going to meet a contact at the Division (the black ops group Blonksy runs) killing civilians on this fake mission.

Devil Hulk sends Hulk on a worse mission later, having Hulk destroy several Division buildings that have ''Samson'' claims have no civilians in them, that is a lie, these are actually areas populated by civilians. After a while, Samson's voice becomes Devil Hulk's voice and Devil Hulk urges Hulk to kill as many people as he can.

After that, the real Doc Samson helps General Ross capture the Hulk and Blonsky violently scans Bruce Banner's mind, allowing Devil Hulk to gain more control. Devil Hulk makes it clear that he has some nasty plans when he takes over Bruce Banner's mind and gains Hulk's power:

Devil Hulk: You've opened a door to me, Bruce. A crown of light on my face that I never had before. Did you imagine I'd ever let you close it on me? We're going to be gods in this world that's rejected and feared you for so long. We're going to tear it into a billion pieces. I'm the inevitable conclusion. I'm the ultimate - you. I'm the DEVIL.

Anyway, Banner is able to build a machine that allows him to face Devil Hulk in his mind. Devil Hulk plans to erase Banner's mind so he can completely take over, Devil Hulk also mocks Hulk as a child while fighting him. After Hulk defeats him, Devil Hulk is surprised ''a child'' has defeated him and pathetically begs for his life before he is destroyed.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

I think so, Abomination tries to destroy a major American city by the end of the game and General Ross seems uncaring about civilian casualties while trying to defeat Hulk with a giant mech suit (though this happened after Devil Hulk had Hulk go these destructive rampages, so maybe Ross is justifying this by thinking he will save more lives in the long run by killing the Hulk).

However, tricking Hulk into killing civilians is pretty nasty and Devil Hulk plans to kill a lot more people if he can take over Hulk's mind. Devil Hulk's limited by the fact that he is a presence in Hulk's mind, if he got full control of the Hulk he would have been a thousand worse.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

I going to say no, no FE and while he sometimes pretends to have Hulk's best interests in mind, those are clearly lies, like when it is begging for its life.

Devil Hulk is no GDV, he is cruel and condescending, often sounding like a cruel abuser.

The big question is, does Devil Hulk have moral agency? He is an evil personality within Hulk's mind (but it has a separate voice from Bruce, tempts him with power, patronizes him, begs Hulk to spare him, etc) he almost seems like a separate entity sometimes (but clearly takes cues from Bruce's father).

Final Verdict?

How to deal with this Devil?

He may count, if you think he has moral agency.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 15th 2019 at 7:03:31 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#191718: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:37:09 PM

Any more votes on my Omega Red pic?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#191720: Nov 15th 2019 at 6:48:02 PM

I remember watching a playthrough of Ultimate Destruction, and I wondered if Devil Hulk would be a good candidate.

I refrained because I feel he's still a split-personality of Banner. Bruce and the Hulk have different personalities and voice actors, but they're clearly separate parts of the same person. I'd say Devil Hulk probably represents all the repressed childhood trauma Bruce suffered at the hands of his father manifested in the worst possible way. This is kind of nebulous territory where one has to consider if we count split personalities as separate entities with their own moral agency, and typically this thread doesn't.

If it was clearly established that Devil Hulk was not a part of Banner's psyche, I'd give him an upvote. As it is, his nature and moral agency is too nebulous for me to vote him up. I'm giving him a [tdown].

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#191722: Nov 15th 2019 at 7:13:32 PM

[up][up] Fair enough, but an interesting question regarding the Hulk is do his separate personalities have moral agency? Does Joe Fixit have moral agency (he doesn't appear in the game except as a skin), but if Fixit has his own moral agency, wouldn't Devil Hulk have it as well.

Apparently Devil Hulk in the comics seemed to have mellowed out a bit and is somewhat more sympathetic then he is in this game (but that is a separate work).

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#191723: Nov 15th 2019 at 7:14:24 PM

[tup] to Devil Hulk

Personally I'm fine with split personalities so long as it isn't Stated that they represent either the Trauma or Dark side of a person, the issue with most split personality Charachters is that it's usually stated that's the case

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#191724: Nov 15th 2019 at 7:16:21 PM

I personally think we should treat split personalities as a case-by-case, given how DID works. Alters will do their purpose no matter what, but otherwise have full agency, so I'm not expecting many to qualify, but I don't think it should be ruled out every time.

As for Devil Hulk? Frankly I have no idea. Abstain for now.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191725: Nov 15th 2019 at 7:16:42 PM

Because one personality has agency doesn't mean the others do. I have concerns for Devil hulk


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