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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
JEM12901 Since: Sep, 2019
#191627: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:35:25 PM

I'd suggest adding Anna from Jigsaw as a Complete Monster.

Who is she? What did she do? John Kramer's next-door neighbor Anna often got into arguments with her husband Matthew, and one night while he was sleeping, Anna decided to murder their baby by smothering it with a pillow and then frame Matthew for it without any remorse, causing the latter to hang himself out of guilt. When she and four other people are captured by the John Kramer himself, Anna plays the other survivors like a fiddle by presenting herself as showing empathy and being level-headed to get them to trust her out of pragmatism just to save herself, all the while accepting zero responsibility for her actions. When only she and Ryan are left alive in Jigsaw's game and are chained in a room with a Backwards-Firing Gun and the key to their shackles placed inside of a shotgun shell, she turns the gun on Ryan and fires, killing herself and thus dooming Ryan to die from blood loss after destroying the key.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191628: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:36:46 PM

Well, it's an effortpost, albeit short, but...no. SAW is a mess of horrific people doing horrific things.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#191629: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:37:08 PM

@Master N: PM me to discuss the Valkyrie profile guy.

[tdown]Ana. Heinous standard too high.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 15th 2019 at 12:37:53 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
JEM12901 Since: Sep, 2019
#191631: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:40:54 PM

@Lightysnake That may be true, but most of those horrific people are either A) only guilty of doing ONE single crime, or B) have morals or loved ones to make them slightly less monstrous than completely. Anna is hands down the worst of them all.

Edited by JEM12901 on Nov 15th 2019 at 12:41:51 PM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#191632: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:42:58 PM

Easy no to Anna. An approved Hate Sink, true, but not heinous enough. Not even close. Even Zep Hindle and Xavier Chavez out-heinousses her with similar resources.

@ JEM12901 Non-CMs also participates in the heinous standard. Anna is even more Left Behind than Nicolae Carpathia.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Nov 15th 2019 at 9:50:11 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191633: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:43:46 PM

Anna is the most despicable, but she's not necessarily a complete monster.

Even Jigsaw I nearly has several children killed

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#191634: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:44:34 PM

[tup] Lighty’s candidates and Nith.

[tdown] Anna. Having known the Saw series, the heinous standard is pretty high, and even though Anna murders her own child, an infant, she doesn’t even come close to passing the baseline.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#191635: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:46:14 PM

[tdown] Ana, for the same reasons as everyone else.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
JEM12901 Since: Sep, 2019
#191636: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:51:04 PM

I'm pretty sure the only times Jigsaw 1 directly tries to kill a child is in the first two movies with Dr. Gordon's daughter and Eric Matthews' son, both of whom survived. And either way, John likes to give his victims a chance by making his traps escapable, and he seems to truly care about his wife and apprentices, so I don't know about him being a complete monster.

Edited by JEM12901 on Nov 15th 2019 at 12:51:36 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#191637: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:51:39 PM

No to Anna. I'm a huge fan of the series and she's not nearly heinous enough. Not many are in that series. The few who are have redeeming qualities. Such as John who is an MB.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 15th 2019 at 2:52:56 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#191638: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:51:40 PM

[tup] to Selina and Alban, and the Demon.

[tdown] To Ana

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#191639: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:51:58 PM

John's not a CM, but he still contributes to the heinous standard.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#191640: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:54:08 PM

This.

Look, for all John's "I'm just testing people and giivng them a chance" bullshit, he still leaves a little girl in a situation where she could die, and orders a man to murder an innocent child should her father fail his tests.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#191641: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:55:57 PM

@acw: This is my bad. Its Delacourt. Not Delecourt

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#191642: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:56:17 PM

No to Anna.

Jem, every villain, and in some cases, every character contributes to the bar for heinousness within a work.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#191643: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:56:39 PM

[tup] to Nithriel and the Demon. [tdown] to Ana.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#191644: Nov 15th 2019 at 12:57:47 PM

Should we mention that Jigsaw's intentions are legit, but it doesn't mean that they always work?

Jigsaw's worldview is very often deconstructed through the series, and it doesn't changes the fact that what he did are still atrocities far surpassing Anna's rapsheet. Not everybody regained the will to live after his tests and the health insurance executives have no problem whatsoever calling him out on his narrow-minded views.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Nov 15th 2019 at 9:59:00 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#191645: Nov 15th 2019 at 1:10:52 PM

Let’s not forget that two of Jigsaw’s apprentices, Amanda and Hoffman, have also rigged some of the traps to be inescapable even if the victim figures out how to escape said trap, and the traps tend to not only be incredibly graphic, but also tortuous and painful. Sp yeah, Anna does not come even close to counting.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#191646: Nov 15th 2019 at 1:15:20 PM

[tup] to the Demon.

I think Unalaq was another accidental CM.

JEM12901 Since: Sep, 2019
#191647: Nov 15th 2019 at 1:16:33 PM

Okay, since neither Rick Trager or SAW's Anna are good candidates, let me think...

I really wanna add Irene Engel, Jack Welker, and The Governor to Complete Monster for all of the atrocities that they committed with zero remorse, but Engel seemed to at least care about her boyfriend Bubi, Jack truly loves his nephew Todd, and the Governor has somewhat of a Freudian Excuse in the novels.

Damn. If neither of those three count, then I got nothing.

Edited by JEM12901 on Nov 15th 2019 at 1:18:54 AM

Mimic45 Since: Feb, 2017
#191648: Nov 15th 2019 at 1:17:10 PM

[tdown] to Anna, for the reasons mentioned above.

Hey, I just noticed that it's been exactly 1000 pages since my first message in this thread. Time goes fast...

BTW, I should take this opportunity to inform everyone that I have some EP's for several villains from a well-known franchise whom I don't think have been discussed yet that are coming very soon.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#191649: Nov 15th 2019 at 1:17:57 PM

Jack and Governor were previously there, but were cut. And Irene has loved ones.

EDIT: Oh, and it's almost 2 weeks. Goes without saying, but no CM for Sun & Moon anime. Not even close.

Edited by ACW on Nov 15th 2019 at 4:20:42 AM

JEM12901 Since: Sep, 2019
#191650: Nov 15th 2019 at 1:20:12 PM

Is it okay to put Jack and Governor back, or no?

Edited by JEM12901 on Nov 15th 2019 at 1:22:28 AM


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