TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19101: Nov 14th 2013 at 7:40:16 PM

Cut the Overlord there, no agency. Cut all the stubs. cut the Future Diary one as well.

jackedup85 jackedup85 from The Principality of Zeon Since: Jan, 2012
jackedup85
#19102: Nov 14th 2013 at 8:07:49 PM

Just watched Gargantia's second OVA. I vote yes on Aleria.

edited 14th Nov '13 8:11:58 PM by jackedup85

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#19103: Nov 14th 2013 at 8:41:08 PM

If no one objects I'll add Gostello from Blue Comet SPT Layzner and the Black Butler entries to Sandbox.Anime And Manga Monsters.

Is there any decision for Shuuhei from Black Bird?

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19104: Nov 14th 2013 at 8:43:44 PM

Forgot that Degrassi had an entry.

  • Complete Monster: Not only does Dean rape Paige, but he tries to get her to put it behind her rather than face a trial. You know, a trial that would possibly convict him? (If she had any evidence...)
    • Bobby is a similar case, with how he treats Fiona.

First one would count, but this show being just morally ambiguous all over from what I remember, I would cut it. Second one has almost no context.

El Goonish Shive

  • Complete Monster: Damien. A sadistic mass-murderer who regularly abused those under his care and planned to not only "breed" with Grace to create an army, but also to use said army to commit mass-genocide on the entire human race. The closest thing he has to a Freudian Excuse, his belief that he is a God and can therefore do anything he wants, simply doesn't hold up under the weight of his crimes. Especially when one takes into account the obvious pleasure he takes in his crimes.

Barely read this webcomic so I don't know. Anyone else?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19105: Nov 14th 2013 at 9:02:07 PM

Thaaaat guy sounds like a pretty clear keep.

I say 'yes' for Shuhei, btw

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19106: Nov 14th 2013 at 9:07:11 PM

I'll cut the Degrassi stuff. As for Daimen, anyone want to expand on him?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19107: Nov 14th 2013 at 9:08:02 PM

Even if we can't, that's...pretty telling on its own, really

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19108: Nov 14th 2013 at 9:18:23 PM

Okay, then. I'll leave it as is. Should I request its addition to the Webcomic page now or wait a bit longer?

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#19109: Nov 14th 2013 at 10:07:31 PM

Okay, regarding the Transformers Page

Ultra Magnus: I don't know if he committed these actions because he was bored, I think he did it to attain power and destabilize the universe, or some such plot.

Pharma: Remove the part where he dies and is dragged away, not necessary to CM trope.

Silas: Remove part where he is dissected, did we agree that his Alas, Poor Villain moment didn't disqualify him?

Lockdown: I agree, remove Megatron's mention

Thrust: I disagree with him, he's a dirty Coward and a Quisling, but Sideways, in his appearance here outshines him. Thrust himself doesn't meet the heinous standard.

edited 14th Nov '13 10:18:14 PM by DrPsyche

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19110: Nov 14th 2013 at 10:25:20 PM

[up] I don't think anyone in the Armada continuity qualifies, honestly, though I'm not familiar with Cybertron. Megatron was noble in Armada, though less so in Energon and I'm told even less so in Cybertron. Sideways's moral agency is questionable (at times it seems he's just a "scalpel" for Unicron the "surgeon," if that analogy makes sense) and has a (kind of lame) Freudian Excuse in Cybertron, and Thrust is just your standard opportunistic jackass who hitched his wagon to the Big Bad so he could be on the "Winning" side.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#19111: Nov 14th 2013 at 10:45:53 PM

About Aleria of Suisei no Gargantia, there are a few problems I have.

She doesn't really have a lot of screen time (maybe about three minutes), and doesn't have more characterisation than your average Generic Dooms Day Villain. She wants power, she doesn't care about her sister, and that's about all we get. Even if she's the closest thing to an antagonist in the episode, she's largely irrelevant to the real plot. She stirs up a bit, but that's it. Basically just an additional pawn on the way to Kugel's Start of Darkness.

The killings in the start of the episode are off-screen, though we do see some of the bodies. They're also carried out by the other two sisters. I think the conflict at the end of the series proper had a higher body count, which is equally applicable to Striker as this is to Aleria. It's also comparable to what the protagonist of the series did in episode 2. If you also include Hideauze in what's killed, she's not even close, even in this episode alone, as what Kugel did to them was depicted as significantly gorier and more horrible. In addition they're pirates killing those who betrayed their religion and their fleet.

All in all, she doesn't really stand out.

edited 14th Nov '13 10:50:56 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#19112: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:20:01 PM

@Hamburger Time: Yeah, in the Unicron trilogy only Cybertron Megatron/Galvatron has the intent and actions to unobjectively qualify. Sideways is another problem. Like the Fallen he's supposed to be the same guy in all continuities. I remember this discussion, we decided to add him because merging him with all the others was a retcon of sorts, and as such his original portrayal could be separated. In Cybertron he has redeeming qualities, love for his brother, Freudian Excuse, and his actions aren't always played seriously. But there's still that multiversal problem, sometimes he's evil, sometimes he's just in the background. He might have been the car that was sliced in half at the Beginning of Revenge of The Fallen, but that idea was brought up in a Transformers: Animated book that had such gloriously unadulterated infused "nerd" within it, (For starters it was written by The Elephander and a Dalek which were disguises of two guys using old technology from a throwaway toy commercial) that even the writers don't know if that is canon or not.

That said, you do have a point, Sideways may have just been a puppet for Unicron to manifest and manipulate people.

edited 14th Nov '13 11:25:08 PM by DrPsyche

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19113: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:24:26 PM

[up]The original discussion was based only around Armada!Sideways, as he's the only version who qualifies.

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#19114: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:25:55 PM

[up] Exactly, we agreed that the retcon into a multiversal entity made him separate from the rest of his appearances (if memory serves), unlike the fallen who was set up as a multiversal entity.

edited 14th Nov '13 11:26:24 PM by DrPsyche

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#19115: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:32:47 PM

[up][up][up][up] A few counter-arguments for Another Duck:

  • 1. The OV As have every bit of relevance to the plot. The second one, in particular, helps illustrate Kugel's Start of Darkness, which could have never started in the first place if Aleria didn't try to kill Linaria.
  • 2. It is also implied that Aleria used Linaria's conversion as an excuse to coverup to usurp control of their (presumably dead) father's fleet. And if religion really was driving point, then the possibility of Aleria and her other two sisters offing their father for conversion would not be out of the question. But I digress from WMG, though speaking of conversions...
  • 3. Near the end of the episode, she is also willing to abandon her religion for the sake of becoming the high priestess. Why? She knew that Linaria held much influence over Kugel's actions and it would be her prime ticket to gaining political, social, and religious power in the fleet. The fact that she smirked at her sisters death should tell you how heinous her intentions were.
  • 4. Yes, Kugel does brutally kill the Hideauze he encounters. However, that would have also never happened (and he probably might have not known until much later) if Aleria did not intentionally pissed them off with mines. The fact that she belongs to a religion that worships Hideauze and bring them to even a remote chance of danger further illustrates that religion and pirate culture never appealed to her; power did. Also...
  • 5. To understand how serious her status as a villain in this series is, Striker is the only character I can think of that is remotely close to Aleria's level of evilness. Even then, Striker is thoroughly a Well-Intentioned Extremist. So one could easily call Aleria the first genuine villain in Gargantia who also happens to be disgustingly, purely evil in intent, personality, etc.
  • 6. Finally, I understand she only appears in one episode. The impact she leaves on Kugel, however, greatly affects the later episodes of the television series. So despite her lack of screen time, she can be seen as a catalyst for Kugel's cult in the first place. This of course also affects the well-being of other characters that weren't there; I guarantee you that the Gargantians would have never encountered Kugel's cult if Aleria never tried to kill her youngest sister. All circles and roundabouts, ain't it?

edited 14th Nov '13 11:50:20 PM by sanfranman91

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#19116: Nov 15th 2013 at 12:46:23 AM

Randomly skimming through pages of books I've read and I see that Anansi Boys has had its Complete Monster entry removed. For a lark, let's see if Grahame Coats fits.

Given: As the head of a prominent talent agency, Graham Coats has been stealing money from his clients for years, most notably of which is the estate of the dead comedian, whose widow he's been stringing along for years with promises that the money was all tied up in investments and suchlike.

When said widow finally catches wise to his embezzlement and confronts him, he kills her, frames his company's bookkeeper, (our protagonist, Fat Charlie) and flees the country.

When Fat Charlie's ex-fiance and her mother visit the island he's hiding out at on vacation Graham Coats becomes convinced that they were sent by Fat Charlie and kidnaps them, locking them in his wine cellar, and notes that he's going to kill them eventually.

He later threatens to kill Fat Charlie and Charlie's friend, Daisy, in public no less.

Not sure if it also counts that he allies himself with the Big Bad in order to kill said ex-fiance and her mother during an escape attempt, because he really doesn't have the slightest idea what he's actually getting into when he does so (aside from the trying to kill them part).

edited 15th Nov '13 12:47:36 AM by Eagal

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#19117: Nov 15th 2013 at 12:55:33 AM

[up][up]

The fact that she smirked at her sisters death should tell you how heinous her intentions were.
She smiled because she got closer to achieving her objective. So? It only says she disregards the life of one person, who pretty much stole the inheritance she saw herself worthy of.

I didn't say the OVAs had little relevance to the plot. I said Aleria wasn't that important. She, herself, didn't do anything about killing Linaria. She acted along the lines she was expected to, and could've been replaced by someone else. She didn't leave much of an impact on Kugel herself. The loss of Linaria, however, did.

I mentioned piracy and religion not necessarily because it was her only motivation, but because it puts her actions into perspective. Within that culture, her actions don't stand out that much. If her actions towards Linaria were so heinous, why did she still hold her position when Linaria returned and assumed control? Linaria didn't punish her. No one else saw that it was needed. It's not heinous by the standards of the story.

Whether something would or wouldn't happen if things were different is irrelevant. Stating they absolutely couldn't is plainly false.

Kugel and Striker are the cause for far more lives lost, and they do take control of the fleet. Aleria's sisters show an equal disregard for people's lives, and were the ones actually killing them. There are other pirates in other episodes (like the ones in episode 2) who're just as bad.

Even if she's more heinous than most other characters, what she does and plans to do are eclipsed by what others do.

Check out my fanfiction!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19118: Nov 15th 2013 at 1:06:22 AM

Duck, I have to say your argument's reaching levels I don't get...this isn't how I'm used to seeing heinousness measured. Aleria serving as a catalyst or device or irrelevant o her qualification. While Striker achieves more, Striker is a powerful AI, withfar more resources and the cult grows enormously since then. Aleria causes a large chunk of bloodshed and it's hard to imagine her capable of more

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#19119: Nov 15th 2013 at 4:42:38 AM

I did say do and plan to do. There's no indication that she planned on killing more people than she actually did, so her rate of success in that regard doesn't really matter. Ruling isn't really heinous in itself, and how exactly she would rule if it came to it is just speculations, which is not even Off Screen Villainy.

I didn't really mean to argue specifically about her serving as a catalyst or device (that in particular was just a response to previous), but about how much she stands out. Which she doesn't. The bloodshed she causes isn't more than what other pirates do.

By the way, where in the episode did they say she was the one who ordered the initial hunt? I kinda missed that part.

Check out my fanfiction!
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19120: Nov 15th 2013 at 5:49:49 AM

Restating my question: Are the Command & Conquer: Red Alert Series and Red Eye write-ups here good to go?

I got one response for the listed Stargate-verse examples I brought up here from Lightysnake. Do other people want to discuss them?

[down]I had modified Yuri's write-up after your reply per your suggestion, Ambar.

edited 15th Nov '13 6:39:48 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19121: Nov 15th 2013 at 6:14:44 AM

[up]As I said the first time you put them up, Stalin's entry looks good. I think Yuri's needs a line about how he runs his faction. Not familiar enough with Red-Eye to judge.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#19122: Nov 15th 2013 at 8:37:27 AM

I would say no to Grahamme Coates- he's not really presented seriously enough, because the novel is fairly comic in tone (yes, that does open up the argument that he is a CM by the novel's standards, but Coates is a somewhat comical character (waits for the inevitable Joker comparison)).

Also, Anansi Boys is in the same universe as American Gods (and its spin-off novella Monarch of the Glen, which also features a nasty character from another Gaiman story), and Coates doesn't really stand out in evilness compared to other characters in the same 'verse.

edited 15th Nov '13 8:41:31 AM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#19123: Nov 15th 2013 at 8:51:55 AM

[up] I agree, he doesn't really stand out as more than a normal villain.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19124: Nov 15th 2013 at 9:40:47 AM

I think this entry of Daimen from El Goonish Shive is good enough. Anyone want to expand on it?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19125: Nov 15th 2013 at 10:05:48 AM

Slight cleanup of Damien: Damien is a sadistic mass-murderer who regularly abused those under his care and planned to not only "breed" with Grace to create an army, but also to use said army to commit mass genocide on the entire human race. The closest thing he has to a Freudian Excuse, his belief that he is a God and can therefore do anything he wants, simply doesn't hold up under the weight of his crimes. Especially when one takes into account the obvious pleasure he takes in his crimes.


Total posts: 326,048
Top