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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19051: Nov 13th 2013 at 8:33:30 PM

Ah, the Doctor from Black Cat (the manga anyway. I've never seen the anime, though I know it's very different). That's actually my ZCE from way back when. Let's see...

Who is The Doctor? What has he done?

The Doctor is one of the Apostles of the Stars, a rebel group loyal to the utterly mad Creed Diskenth. We first meet The Doctor following Train's first battle with Creed. On Creed's orders he reattaches Train's severed arm. He then makes off with Creed, in order to patch him up. So first impressions, he's just The Medic for the bad guys, right?

No. As the series go on, we start to realise that The Doctor is one of the worst members of the Apostles. He's completely indifferent to Creed's execution of Apostle Durham, noting that this is an appropriate punishment for failure. He subsequently captures Rinslet Walker and brings her to Creed's castle, where he forces her to watch as he injects a man with nanomachines that rebuild him into a werewolf monster, that is slaved to Creed and The Doctor. When Train and the Chrono Numbers arrive to free Rinslet, The Doctor turns the werewolf loose, then blows up the castle, leading to the death of Chrono #11, Beluga. He later kidnaps Dr. Tearju and tries to force her to develop a device that will make Creed immortal.

It's during the final battle, however, that he really crosses the line. Capturing two of the bounty hunters who've raided the island, The Doctor injects them with Berserker nanomachines to drive them into an Unstoppable Rage and turns them loose on Train and his allies. When they're defeated, he traps Train and Eve in his Warpworld, a massive illusion based around your worst fears. In it, Train sees Kyoko and Saya, the two women who've loved him, try to murder him. In the meantime, The Doctor prepares to vivisect Eve, because he wants to find out what makes her tick. When she tries to fight back, he makes her fight against illusions of her own past self, and her father figure Sven, then ties her down and shocks her every time she tries to use her powers. When Eve breaks free, he summons several thousand scalpels and prepares to cut her apart, before she knocks him out.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

Things get tricky here. The Apostles of the Stars are a bad bunch. Worse yet, the story is disturbingly willing to forgive people who commit the unforgivable. Kyoko one of Train's henchwomen, gets off on burning people alive from the inside out by kissing them. Yet when she abandons the Apostles and develops a crush on Train it is treated as though she's now a good person, and the Chrono Numbers are treated as the villains for trying to kill her.

That said, The Doctor is a standout among Creed's men. The experiments he runs are truly twisted, and he's way too happy about the idea of vivisecting Eve, a ten year old girl. The psychological sadism he displays during his battles against Train and Eve is also unique to him, as is his turning the two captured bounty hunters into weapons, with the intent of forcing their own allies to kill them. No one else, not even Creed, shows that level of calculated viciousness. Pass, I think.

Does he have any redeeming qualities?

No. Unlike Creed, and most of the other Apostles, for that matter, The Doctor is in this for the sadism and, in his words, For Science!. He's not interested in the future that Creed will build, and simply likes the opportunity to perform experiments with no limitations. He's also completely void of empathy, and in fact lectures Eve on how pointless caring about others is while he tries to cut her open. Pass.

Freudian Excuse or any other mitigating factor?

Again, no. Creed's insane. Kyoko's probably insane. None of the other Apostles really do that much onscreen, except try to kill people who are trying to kill or capture them. The Doctor is completely sane, and has no reason to do what he does beyond "he likes it".

Anything else we should know?

Yes. This series is bad about letting people off the hook. Aside from a couple of early chapters, where Train is quite willing to kill (the author doesn't seem to have figured out what direction he wanted to take the series yet at that point) he takes Thou Shalt Not Kill to stupid levels—unless he can make money off of handing you over to the police, he'll just beat you up and let you go. Worse yet, if you claim to have turned around, he'll do what he did for Kyoko and try and take a bullet for you, no matter how many corpses you've racked up. Not a single major villain ends this series dead or in jail (at least that we're aware of). Kyoko gets to go back to school. Shiki and Maro get to go home. Leon pulls a last second Heel–Face Turn. Creed is left in a wheelchair in the care of his right-hand woman, with a chance at redemption in the future.

The Doctor gets away too. However, in this case, there is no attempt on Train's part to let him go. Train and Eve beat the tar out of him and leave him unconscious, fully intending to throw his ass in jail. He comes to and makes his escape before they can do that, but the writer clearly thought he was worse than the rest of the Apostles, and expressed it just by having Train say that. Moreover, during the epilogue scene, all the other Apostles are happy or recovering. The Doctor is seen with a group of homeless men, huddling next to a fire, trying to avoid freezing. So, I would contend, that even given the stupid idealism that permeates this series (I'm all for Thou Shalt Not Kill, but Thou Shalt Not Punish? Not really), The Doctor is seen by the characters and the writer as worthy of actual punishment, if that's the last image of him we're left with.

Final verdict?

If anyone in Black Cat qualifies for CM-hood, it's The Doctor. He's a sadist and a psychopath who's only in it For Science! Thoughts?

edited 13th Nov '13 11:21:10 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#19052: Nov 13th 2013 at 10:29:33 PM

[up] Well sunuva bitch.

Also, these are some anime and manga entries I can't seem to find discussion for:

  • In Black Bird, we have Kuzonoha Shuuhei. While all the male characters are a bunch of misogynist jerks, Shuuhei stands out among the whole bunch as the most cruel and depraved. Following a failed attempt to rape Misao Harada, he severely wounds her to facilitate her abduction from Kyo's dojo. By his own admission, he has no qualms about injuring her as long as she is able to provide him with an heir that will consolidate his position as the head of his clan. Only a total bastard like this can make a Bastard Boyfriend like Kyo seem like a Knight in Shining Armor to Misao by comparison.
  • Gostello from Blue Comet SPT Layzner, a Gradosian officer who takes We Have Reserves Up To Eleven - his only real joy is killing people, the more defenseless the better, and his lust for blood is such that he often murders his own men just to get a kick out of it. Logic tells him that killing his own men might prove detrimental to him as well...but he's so Ax-Crazy that he just doesn't care. To cement his Complete Monster status, in fact, he often refers to his victims as "prey" or "meat" and gets all tingly at the prospect of murdering people in the most gruesome of ways. Truly a monster, if there ever was one in such a dark Real Robot series. And his hilarious death of getting stepped on by a giant mech? WELL EARNED.

Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo

  • Complete Monster - Czar Baldy Bald/Tsuru Tsuruina III, he led a Badass Army to conquer the world in a matter of days in which he ruled with tyranny to which is referred as the darkest period of the empire and is only stopped by an even more insane madman and the Hair Kingdom. His immediate action after reawakening is destroy a city for amusement. He is not played for laughs, being extremely serious despite the comical things happening to him and has no hint of a redeeming trait. His fight with Bobobo starts off with the former immediately trying to kill him with his staff, and only spared him for last after realizing he had the Hair Ball he coveted. He then orchestrated an roulette attack that would kill the cast one by one, earning Bobobo's wrath when it targets Beauty. He then spends the rest of the fight trying to sadistically kill Bobobo, and/or weaken him enough to take the Hair Ball. And when that failed, he absorbed him. Aside from this Hair Ball obsession, he desires the extinction of the human race because he finds them inferior, and being an android doesn't help matters. Even the Narrator in the dub finds him irredeemable, and the soundtrack in his fight involves a lot of moments which there is a low organ that plays during his Lack of Empathy moment instead of the Leitmotif of the usual Chrome Dome elites.
    • He gets even worse after getting Bibibi's Hair Ball, using its power to create an even more powerful empire. He orchestrated a school to teach the youth to be Hair Hunters, had soldiers humiliate the shaven even further by adding ramen on top of their heads, develop drugs to make them pure evil and forced the former members into slavery only to be executed once it was completed

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19053: Nov 13th 2013 at 11:00:23 PM

[up]That an endorsement of The Doctor counting? Anyway, that first entry doesn't sound good. Makes me wonder just how much of a bastard the girl's boyfriend is. Until we have more information on that, I say burn it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19054: Nov 13th 2013 at 11:03:37 PM

He's a possessive jerk, but Shuuhei's way worse.

For Gostello...hoooooly hell, does he count. He's a depraved pychopath who just loves killing everything he can.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19055: Nov 13th 2013 at 11:15:40 PM

[up]Wasn't gonna question Gostello. Thoughts on The Doctor? I will note that the only person who could overshadow him in the evil department is Creed, and Creed is insane. Like full on, "cannot comprehend why the hero still has a grudge against him for killing his maybe girlfriend" insane. Plus, Creed's one of the three most dangerous people in the setting alongside Train and Sephira (Chrono #1). The Doctor's a skinny guy in a labcoat who doesn't even evidence his Master of Illusion schtick until the last moment.

edited 13th Nov '13 11:20:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19056: Nov 13th 2013 at 11:30:34 PM

Gonna say keep, yeah. Just needs a rewrite

the Bobobo guy I was gonna say cut on principle as it's a comedy, but he seems to be...played straight

edited 13th Nov '13 11:31:46 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19057: Nov 13th 2013 at 11:33:47 PM

[up]I don't know. It's a show about battles involving hair. We sure it's actually played straight?

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19059: Nov 14th 2013 at 5:06:19 AM

Sharptooth, Jim, and Dreadpool/Deadpool have been cut.

I made the changes to the RA2 write-ups in this post. Any other thoughts on Stalin, Yuri, or Rippner?

Monster.Live Action TV as well as the YMMV pages list various examples from the Stargate franchise which haven't been discussed so far. Stargate SG-1 has Anubis, RepliCarter, Tanith, Dr. Keffler, and Nadal. Stargate Atlantis has none, and Stargate Universe has Simeon.

The Goa'uld put up a very high bar for heinousness, since the whole lot are Always Chaotic Evil Overlords who torture enemies and rebels to death and enslave entire planets so they can rule as gods, aside from a good splinter faction called the Tok'ra. Anubis is by far the worst, detested by even the other Goa'uld System Lords, and aside from planetary genocide tries to exterminate all life in the Milky Way Galaxy, including his own race and even his mind-controlled super soldiers who made it possible for him to do so. Even accounting for power differences Tanith is tame compared to Anubis, and is little different from most Goa'uld in terms of evil.

Replicator Carter is the worst human-form Replicator in both SG 1 and Atlantis. Manipulating Carter and betraying and killing Fifth, consuming all inhabited worlds, killing loads of others and all for the purpose of her own advancement puts her beyond her predecessors. The only thing that might disqualify her is moral agency. I get the impression that the human Replicators in SG-1 are conscientous enough to make moral choices, but rather than evolving gradually RepliCarter was created by Fifth, then killed him for being weak. It's left a bit ambiguous to what extent she was born evil or become so through her own will.

Dr. Keffler may not be bad enough by the universe's standards. Even minor Goa'uld torture their victims to death over and over, and his crimes seem mostly implied.

Nadal might be a keep since he allies with the story arc's Scary Dogmatic Aliens only to dominate his own world, and tries to kill thousands of people by destroying their capital with a weapon he gained.

Simeon is the only villain I'm not familiar with, but I have doubts he qualifies. The example conflates Moral Event Horizon with Complete Monster and while he may be the worst character in that series, others on his level have done much worse in the other ones, which are all in the same continuity.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19060: Nov 14th 2013 at 6:59:30 AM

@19036 @19022

I'm gonna cut the Beverly Hills Cop III and Angels & Demons examples if no one objects.

Has anyone read the Complete Monster entry for Big Time Rush because it's still there.

edited 14th Nov '13 7:01:27 AM by despoa

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#19062: Nov 14th 2013 at 8:00:32 AM

I've watched bits and pieces of that and it's a pure comedy in my mind.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#19063: Nov 14th 2013 at 8:02:25 AM

BTR is a [bad] comedy. Any evil characters are completely played for laughs. There's no way to justify a CM.

edited 14th Nov '13 8:02:42 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#19064: Nov 14th 2013 at 8:17:42 AM

I'd support including The Doctor- reminds me of Gein in Rurouni Kenshin and also (amusingly enough) the "Gold-Toothed Doctor" of Fullmetal Alchemist.

In both cases (and seemingly in this one), while the Big Bad is pretty nasty, this character is worse in some ways because the Big Bad at least has a reason for doing the stuff they do; this guy is doing it for sadism/intellectual masturbation.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19065: Nov 14th 2013 at 10:21:31 AM

[up]Those are pretty accurate comparisons. The Doctor lacks not only Creed's motivations, but his insanity and good qualities toonote . Speaking of which, has anybody else noticed how many mad scientist types end up on this list?

On a different note, both Lightysnake and I have been reading the current run on Thor: God of Thunder, and unless they pull some good traits out of a hat for him (which given that his current characterisation is basically "The Joker, with magic" seems unlikely) we are definitely going to have to expand Malekith the Accursed's entry.

edited 14th Nov '13 10:22:09 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19066: Nov 14th 2013 at 10:34:25 AM

I don't know about the Joker comparison. He singlehandedly took down a giant and managed to make connections with the Frost Giants. If anything, he's a Dirty Coward that's committing genocide on his own race. I don't think he ever went that low, before.

Anyway, here's a huge entry from Arc Rise Fantasia.

  • Complete Monster: One word. Ignacy.
    • Where to BEGIN with Ignacy? Well, when we first heard of him, he's an old rival of Zamuel and Leon's, fatally injuring your Old Master on the ground with petrifying wounds, and Rastan makes a point NOT to fight him. He also comes up briefly when you find out he had a part in killing the Real Diva Rafil, Adele's mother. Then you hear of him again when the Rogress Gula went nuts because of an altered Biocode when he tried copying it. And when you find out his first name is Walter, doubled as Ryfia's guardian, and that he was head of the Aion Unit/QED, which is actually the Senate's personal assassin league. AND played a part in not only Zamuel's eventual death, but Rex Lagoon's as well, because he manipulated Rastan through his family to betray the Lord Knights. And STILL killed them. Everything for the Aion Unit was just business, but for Zamuel, he was just curious of his potential. And lets not forget Serge/Leon, who not only had his sword arm crippled by him, but also lost his two 'sisters' of the church through Feldragon transfiguration; one of them you had to fight and KILL to keep Ebur save. Leslie also has a bone to pick with him, because he kidnapped her sister for data files on his Aion Unit/QED group. Then, after rubbing in the fact that Shelly Greenhill died at the Batrachites attack during the peace talks (but thankfully didn't), he tries to Code Rape L'Arc, only to hit Ryfia instead, and nearly induce her into a coma. Much later, he interrupts your second fight with Alf to ask you to come to the Lascarde Skywalk, implying he was trying to kidnap L'arc mother for bargaining, but settled for Niko instead, who protected her. It turns out to be a trap in extracting Eesa's Code from both L'Arc and Alf, which forces Adele to sacrifice her life to save Alf's. Satisfied with just one of the codes, Ignacy runs off, easily beating up Alf, Clyde, and Dynos when they give chase, prompting you to one final battle for all the shit he's done. And what were his final words as he dies? Laughing bitterness on how he was so close to ruling the world. It was quite satisfying for Alf to suddenly impale him as he was ranting off.

edited 14th Nov '13 10:38:29 AM by despoa

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19067: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:05:33 AM

"I don't know about the Joker comparison. He singlehandedly took down a giant and managed to make connections with the Frost Giants. If anything, he's a Dirty Coward that's committing genocide on his own race. I don't think he ever went that low, before."

So are you arguing with me or are you not arguing with me? Because frankly, I could take this statement either way, it's so ambiguous. I said we'd likely need to expand his entry. And you said the above. I'm not sure if you're saying we should or shouldn't expand his entry. I'm also not sure how his taking down a mountain giant or forming an alliance with the frost giants has anything to do with his Complete Monster status either way. As for The Joker comparison—he's a Laughing Mad lunatic with a permanent Slasher Smile and a dark sense of humour whose every appearance includes an attempt at one-upping his previous crimes in terms of heinousness. I'm pretty comfortable with that comparison.

You've done this a couple of times despoa—criticised people for not raising a point that they did in fact raise, reacted to request to add a character as though they were requests to cut a character and vice-versa, told people not to say something they did not say, and made your own replies as cryptic and unreadable as possible. I'm thrilled you want to participate in this forum, and you've certainly found lots of entries that are in need of rewrites or cuts, but please—read what people write before you criticize them and make your own answers as legible as possible. It'll make everybody's life, including yours, much easier.

As to that example, yeah that's gonna need a rewrite.

edited 14th Nov '13 11:16:40 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19068: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:08:26 AM

In other news...

Dear Mr. Kishimoto,

Please kill Obito already.

Lots of love, HT.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#19069: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:14:11 AM

I believe Ignacy is being rewritten.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19070: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:15:47 AM

[up][up]I second that motion. And I don't care who does it anymore.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19071: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:17:54 AM

[up] I mean, I get that he's the main baddie and thus has to die with some fanfare, but even Aizen's defeat didn't feel this drawn-out...

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#19072: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:21:00 AM

[up]I think part of the problem may be that Obito as a character has such little connection to the rest of the cast that Kishimoto doesn't know how to make his death work. So he just keeps stringing it out and stringing it out in an effort to make it feel right.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19073: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:22:57 AM

Yeah, that Ignacy entry was brought up. Can't say whether [tup] or [tdown], but dear lord the writeup hurts.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#19074: Nov 14th 2013 at 11:33:17 AM

@Ambar Sonof Deshar

Yes, I was arguing with you about the Joker comparison. Yes, I also agree the Malekith reminded me of the Joker in the beginning of the arc. But what I'm arguing is that over time, he's becoming less like the Joker and more like a general Blood Knight with an army that's loyal to him. But, yes. His entry definitely must be expanded as soon as possible. This is the most horrifying version of Malekith, yet.

"...criticised people for not raising a point that they did in fact raise, reacted to request to add a character as though they were requests to cut a character and vice-versa, told people not to say something they did not say, and made your own replies as cryptic and unreadable as possible."

Let's PM about this because I don't remember.

edited 14th Nov '13 11:34:11 AM by despoa

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19075: Nov 14th 2013 at 12:08:12 PM

guys, I already rewrote Ignacy


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