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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#189676: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:44:14 PM

He was not downvoted. He was shelved for later discussion.

jjj
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#189677: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:49:38 PM

Let's try no to leave a time lapse for debate. I'm saying no.

Also that's a 10-6 split which wouldn't have been enough to get him up anyways.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 30th 2019 at 6:52:43 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#189679: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:01:04 PM

@43110 He wasn’t downvoted, the discussion wasn’t finished. Which is why I brought him back, just to finish it, I honestly don’t care if he goes up or not, I just want the discussion to have an actual conclusion.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#189680: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:21:00 PM

[tup] to Dracula, the Trespasser, Dr. Tar, Count Dracula and the Dreamer.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#189681: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:26:06 PM

Okay, here's how I see it: we discussed him and I'll go in good faith your tallies are accurate, though I recall far too many people being comfortable with him going up to call this anywhere near someone with a good shot; the discussion has now been resurrected for what I'm guessing is want for closure but now means that with zero new points, we're rehashing an old discussion. If there was a new argument I'd be all for it but by all means this just seems to drag it out unnecessarily. Why was this not done the last time he was brought up?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#189682: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:28:02 PM

We were TOLD to shelve him. That's why. Specifically, Falcontallons was the one who suggested shelving him, as seen here

Edited by bobg on Oct 30th 2019 at 4:33:45 AM

jjj
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#189683: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:33:46 PM

I think it's fair to revisit a topic if it fizzled out, particularly since it was pretty close. We did it with Prince of Persia 2008's Ahriman, so there's a precedent for this. I'll abstain having said that.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#189684: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:34:02 PM

Sorry if it seems I’m dragging it out. It just honestly doesn’t feel right to leave it with no closure. In fact, I wouldn’t mind Malbert getting downvoted anyways. I may have no new argument, in fact, I don’t think I can find any new evidence, but I am nonetheless wants to see this guy get his fate, up voted or down voted, it’s not like I’m expecting EVERY candidate of mine to be approved, god knows that’s impossible. Also, it’s Halloween, and I don’t exactly have any other Halloween candidate so.... Yeah. (I really need to find a better one next year.)

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#189686: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:41:49 PM

Falcon said that under the condition a new argument came up...

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#189687: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:53:11 PM

So it's almost Halloween in Britain. Would one and all permit me to kick off this cursed day with my candidate?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#189688: Oct 30th 2019 at 4:57:55 PM

Polar I say go for it.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 30th 2019 at 6:58:20 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#189689: Oct 30th 2019 at 5:04:51 PM

@43110 Well, I don’t have any new evidence, but it is halloween, so me and Bobq figured it would be best to find closure to the Malbert discussion now. Like I said, I don’t expect him to get voted up, and everyone is free to vote as they like, and truth be told, I am just as surprised to see so many upvotes. I was expecting completely downvotes. And to be honest, I was nervous as hell bringing this back. I don’t care if he gets downvoted, but I don’t want me or Bobq to suffer any backlash for it.

@Polarphantom I say go ahead.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#189690: Oct 30th 2019 at 5:21:45 PM

So, I got a very special EP to end this spoopy season - and on a fluke as well.

So, Lovecraft's popular here. Very popular in fact. And one of his many well known works?

The Work

The Dreams in the Witch House is about a rather inquisitive student named Walter Gilman, fascinated by mathematics and folklore, lodges in the former house of the infamous witch Keziah Mason. Mason claimed that through specific angles and geometry she had found the means to transcend space and time and spoke of her secret name Nahab. The day she was to be executed she had disappeared without a trace, the only evidence of her being in her cell were strange markings made with a mysterious red substance. Gilman, believing she was on to something, rents out a room in her former home. Her room, in fact, complete with an oddly angled wall. Because of course.

But as he sleeps in the room, regarded with apprehension by many, he starts to have dreams. And he slowly begins to realise Keziah Mason was more successful than he ever imagined.

But what does she do though?

Accompanied by her familiar, whimsically dubbed Brown Jenkin by the Arkham people, a strange, rat like thing with unsettlingy human features (including Keziah's face), Mason appears before Gilman, slowly speaking to him, taking him to unprecedented cosmos that various writings have dubbed "Hyperspace". In this realm Walter views various alien entities - and likely humans as well in strange forms due to leaving behind the 3rd dimension. Mason eventually brings Gilman to Nyarlathotep himself - in his "Black Man" guise - and makes him sign the Black Book of Azathoth and making him ledge himself to the Crawling Chaos. As the dreams go on, Gilman is compelled, more and more, to various locations for unknowable reasons, but is often able to resist the strange pull that seems to come from the stars themselves. But he often glimpses a crone he recognises as Mason watching him, even though he still believes his dreams are but dreams.

Eventually Mason, Jenkin and Nyarly whisk Gilman away to a muddy alley with Mason trying to goad Gilman in helping kidnap an infant. Gilman lets fear overtake him but as he tries to escape Nyarly gives him a Neck Lift. Finally, on the last night of dreaming, Mason brings Gilman to help her sacrifice the infant boy on May-Eve for some terrible ritual. But as he realises what she is doing Gilman tries to stop her. Mason, livid, attemts to strangle the poor man, but Gilman's crucifix, given to him by a pious neighbour, comes loose enough for Mason to see. She is briefly taken off guard, but as she tries to tighten her grip again, Gilman takes the crucifix, chain and all, and garrots the vile witch. Brown Jenkin tries t save her by gnawing at Gilman's feet, but is too late. Mason dies. But Brown Jenkin finishes her work, biting the infant's wrist and escapes. Gilman makes it back to his own realm but is rendered death by some terrible sound in another plane that no one else could have heard.

So Gilman survives.

Until Brown Jenkin eats through his body, consuming his heart in a sequence reminiscent of Alien and a particularly metal Mortal Kombat fatality.

The house abandoned, a while later the house is condemned after a gale blows down the roof. In the ensuing clearing out are found the bones of an old woman, a dead rat with human or primate features (Jenkin was said to feed on Mason's blood and this suggests it died of starvation after her death) and the bones of numerous infants when that dreadful wall was torn down.

Thus Arkham was freed of Mason's haunting and the people were glad, even if they did not fully understand why.

Mitigating Factors?

Nothing really. She never shows particular care for Brown Jenkin other than her accomplice in crimes, and Jenkin itself is the one that seems to care about her. Where Jenkin came from is a mystery. Two popular theories is that it is Mason and Nyarly's progeny due to its resemblance to other half humans in the Mythos or a higher dimensional servant of Nyarly made into a Familiar to help her.

There is no "Direct" dialogue in the story but she is regularly described as malicious. Indeed, Lovecraft had a real skill in painting a picture with his descriptions. He describes her as wearing an expression "of hideous malevolence and exultation", and has "a croaking voice that persuaded and threatened." She frequently stalked Gilman and shows anger and fear when things don't go her way.

Nothing suggests impaired agency. While Gilman felt compelled to do certain things, he almost always resisted. If Mason ever had these feelings the narrative suggests she embraced them. She is depicted as a murderous zealot f Nyarly throughout. Mason's motivation is the ability to move between dimensions and having immortality by residing in realms where time as we understand it does not exist.

Heinousness?

The only real barrier for entry, but her niche is so horrible I think she makes it eve in the face of the rest of Lovecraft.

The story states she's been active for over 200 years. Every May-Eve and Hallowmass - or Hallowween - she is said to sacrifice a child, an infant. And we see her attempt this with Gilman and we find the evidence of her murders after her death. To quote the story proper:

"In brief, the floor was a veritable ossuary of the bones of small children—some fairly modern, but others extending back in infinite gradations to a period so remote that crumbling was almost complete."

Add to this forcing, threatening and trying to corrupt Gilman into being a acolyte to Narly and, you know, willingly serving the modern archetype of absolute cosmic evil, I think she is pretty damn awful for a mere human, even if described to have super strength.

Nyarly is clearly The Man Behind the Man, but is a silent participant in events. Keziah is The Heavy through and through and while serving Nyarly is presented as her own being. Did Nyarly tell her to kill infants and toddlers? No idea. So I'm gonna put the responsibility entirely on Keziah cause doing otherwise would just be conjecture and Lovecraft clearly wanted her to be the main focus of horror.

Conclusion

I stumbled upon Keziah by accident and I think she counts with what she's got and what she does. To paraphrase Scraggle who spoke to me over PM's: "I don't think anyone else in Lovecraft makes such an industry of Would Hurt a Child".

I think this story is one of Lovecraft's most underrated as well. It spooked me a little, at least.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#189694: Oct 30th 2019 at 5:36:48 PM

[tup] Keziah, the master of The Witch's House.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#189695: Oct 30th 2019 at 5:46:06 PM

[tup] to the Trespasser, Dr. Tar, Dracula, The Dreamer, and Keziah Mason.

[tdown] to Ethel.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
AlmightyKingPrawn I can chase the wind, I can race the rain from Down at Fraggle Rock *clap clap* Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
I can chase the wind, I can race the rain
#189697: Oct 30th 2019 at 6:01:25 PM

[tup] Dreamer and Keziah

She/her. Profile pic is by Richard Michael Gomez @StarmansArt. Please watch Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. https://youtu.be/Vm92JNgPbqk
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#189698: Oct 30th 2019 at 6:05:28 PM

Anyone left to vote on Malbert?

jjj
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#189700: Oct 30th 2019 at 6:16:23 PM

Yes to Satan (megustalations), Trespasser, Dr. Tar, Dracula, Keziah, Dreamer, and Lex.

No to Ethel. Abstain on Malbert.

I thought I would propose an obscure Marvel video game villain, the Big Bad of a 2002 fighting game X-Men: Next Dimension, not a super reoccurring villain here, but one that has shown up before, the one who claims to be the last bastion for humanity.

Who is Bastion? What has he done?

As usual, Bastion is an advanced Sentinel disguised as a human (this game does not get into his convoluted origins, thank god), who was the leader of Operation Zero Tolerance, a plan by Prime Sentinels (who can take human form) for destroying mutant kind. After being defeated, Bastion was taken apart, with his head stored at a SHIELD base. The Prime Sentinels rescue him and Bastion makes a new plan.

Bastion has his Prime Sentinels hire the Brotherhood of mutants to attack Xavier's school. While the X-Men are fighting the Brotherhood, the Prime Sentinels kidnap Forge, a mutant that can build anything and take him to Bastion. Bastion then tortures Forge to force him to build a machine that can neutralize mutant powers.

Now one can argue that maybe Bastion just wants to depower all mutants and leave it at that, but Bastion's dialogue seems to suggest otherwise, he talks about mutant extinction and using a mutant to kill all mutants, so he may be genocidal, despite having the tech to depower mutants.

Bastion tricks the X-Men into fighting the Brotherhood and attacks Magneto's base in the Savage Land, The X-Men and Brotherhood team up, but many of them are depowered by the Sentinels.

The X-Men and Brotherhood attack Bastion in Magneto's throne room, where Bastion reveals Forge broken, his cyborg limbs removed. Jean calls him a monster, but Bastion claims the ascent of mutants will lead to the death of humanity and he will not let that happen. He claims he is doing this for the benefit of humans like Juggernaut, but Juggernaut decides to attack Bastion and Bastion teleports him to Mars, calling him a misguided fool. Bastion escapes to Asteroid M, where Wolverine, Magneto, and Jean destroy him.

However, if Jean gets a perfect victory against Bastion, there is a dark ending, where Bastion kills Cyclops in front Jean, she goes insane, becomes the Dark Phoenix, destroys Bastion and blows up the Moon.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

That depends on whether you think Bastion is actually genocidal or not, but I think his dialogue makes it clear he wants to kill all mutants, not just depower them (IMO), which I think makes him one of the worst character in the game. He does not get far in his plans, limiting his attacks to the X-Men and Brotherhood, but he seems to just want to take out his most powerful enemies first, his long term goals seem genocidal.

Magneto and the Brotherhood do not do much villainy in this game and though Dark Phoenix blows up the moon in the bad ending, Bastion is less powerful then Phoenix and that was indirectly his fault.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Bastion claims to defend humanity from mutants, but teleports Juggernaut to Mars and calls him a fool. Also if Bastion depowers mutants, they would not be a threat to humanity, Bastion would not have to kill them (but seems to want to regardless).

Bastion has moral agency in other versions of the character, I see no reason to assume he is different here and for someone who claims to guided by good intentions, he is quite sadistic to Forge.

Final Verdict?

Depends whether you think his genocidal motives are clear enough, but I say yes to Bastion.

This video has all the cutscenes for the game, so you judge the source itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFSExXcrAYw

Edited by Overlord on Oct 30th 2019 at 9:02:49 AM


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