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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#189651: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:09:33 PM

[up] Minor? Yeah, man, I have to disagree. I've seen a lot of scenes that are there just to make fun of the fact that she is overweight, and that's funny I guess? And again, that's not my only reason, I can't take a film seriously when it uses cartoon sound effects and other things that are clearly there to sound comical.

Sorry but an obese woman chasing and killing a person for hiding her food is impossible to be played straight, but again, that's my opinion.

[tup] to another Dracula.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 30th 2019 at 6:26:21 AM

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#189652: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:13:47 PM

Ah well. I'll see what the others say. if she doesn't go up, at least I've taken care of another work to search.

jjj
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#189653: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:31:01 PM

[up][up] Yeah, pretty much why I’m abstaining on Ethel.

It's Spooky Month!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#189655: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:44:28 PM

[tup] to Dracula, changing yo abstain on Ethel because idk if this is a "Manos" situation or not

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#189656: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:47:02 PM

[up] Oh Manos didn't have a bit of tasteless Black Comedy in it, it was just... bad.

[down] I think the main difference between the two films is how Manos really tries to portray itself seriously, which is not the case for Criminally Insane.

[tup] Lex and Lucifer as well.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 30th 2019 at 6:52:35 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#189657: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:49:35 PM

[up] I was just thinking of "what does it take for someone from a hilariously bad source to qualify)

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#189658: Oct 30th 2019 at 1:58:15 PM

[up] As long as the villain is taken seriously. If a work is hilariously bad, but the villain is intended to be taken seriously? That's fine. And Ethel does not seem to be taken seriously enough, so I give her a [tdown].

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Oct 30th 2019 at 4:58:56 AM

AlmightyKingPrawn I can chase the wind, I can race the rain from Down at Fraggle Rock *clap clap* Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
I can chase the wind, I can race the rain
#189659: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:00:15 PM

[tup] Dracula

She/her. Profile pic is by Richard Michael Gomez @StarmansArt. Please watch Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. https://youtu.be/Vm92JNgPbqk
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#189660: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:10:31 PM

Changing to [tdown] on Ethel, thanks for the clarification, guys

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#189661: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:14:46 PM

Oh well. I may check out the remake to see if she qualifies there, but for now, I think it's time another troper and I take care of King Malbert.

jjj
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#189662: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:16:51 PM

No to Ethel. That doesn't sound anywhere near the boundaries of what we consider appropriate for the trope.

I've got us a candidate before Halloween.

What's the setting?

The Dreamland Chronicles is an all-ages fantasy webcomic (recently being rebooted, as I've discovered—the original run is still up for sale on Amazon) unique in that—at least for most of its run—was rendered through 3D, computer-generated images instead of traditional drawn pages. Focusing on the adventures of a young man named Alex Carter who, in his youth, used to visit his dreams (no relations to Randolph Carter) Alex returns years later with a strange key, finding many familiar faces—like the elf queen, Nastajia, the rock giant Paddington, and the fairy Lily—in an effort to defeat the evil dragon tyrant ruling Dreamland, Nicodemus. Sounds pretty simple on paper, right? Well... as they often are, things become more complicated. Let's talk about the Dreamer.

Who is the Dreamer? What has he done?

The mysterious Dreamer is actually the King of the Nightmare Realm, a twisted realm and dark mirror to Dreamland populated by a collective hive mind of nightmare creatures called Abbadon. The Dreamer is, in actuality, Gilgamesh himself, who as an Immortality Seeker traveled to Dreamland in pursuit of eternal life. Abbadon granted it to him, except the resulting state it left him in forced him into a healing vat for thousands of years.

Making himself the master of Abbadon, the Dreamer through it manipulates King Nicodemus and every misfortune in the comic, causing death and mayhem in the background as he strives for a way to keep his body alive. To this end, the Dreamer gets incredibly nasty. The Dreamer starts nabbing the dream-bodies of children who come to Dreamland and keeps them locked in perpetual nightmares to feed off their fear and agony. Thousands of kids are kept trapped in eternal torment as sort of power batteries for the Dreamer, some for millennia. When Alex and his companions discover this, they're rightfully horrified, to the Dreamer's contempt and disgust.

When the Dreamer finally takes central stage, things get hectic. The Dreamer floods Dreamland with the horrific creatures of Abbadon, attempting to set up a portal network to allow himself to cross over Dreamland to Earth. The Dreamer intends to take over the world—but not before, as he cruelly gloats to Alex, killing all life on the surface of the planet, including Alex's twin brother on the surface. Leaving Dreamland in ruin as he does so, the Dreamer even callously dismisses Nicodemus whom he's ruthlessly manipulated to his death, remarking he's outlived his purpose when a mortally-injured Nicodemus weakly begs him for help. The Dreamer one-ups himself toward the final battle and, for a power boost, decides he needs a power boost and outright kills all the thousands of children he's kept as power batteries by devouring their souls outright (Nicodemus sacrifices himself to bring them back). The Dreamer is fought and eventually defeated (relatively anticlimactically) by Alex and his twin brother, who strike them both with their swords in both the waking and dream worlds, destroying him.

Any mitigating factors?

...Nope. No sympathy in his backstory, despite the whole "Gilgamesh" story here; here he's just a power-hungry monster willing to do absolutely anything for eternal life, even at the expense of literally all else that lives and breath. For a family-friendly comic? The Dreamer is bad. And I Must Scream situations for thousands of kids for millennia, attempting to annihilate all life on Earth, and all his nasty attempts at mass murder clear him easily.

Conclusion?

Keeper, and... my first webcomic candidate, actually.

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Oct 30th 2019 at 3:17:07 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#189663: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:18:22 PM

Hell to the yes, been looking forward to this one

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#189667: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:41:52 PM

[tup] to the Dreamer

How goes the progress in making the Marvel Video Games page?

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#189668: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:48:10 PM

Abstaining becsuse, reading the setting alone, this sounds like a good story to check out, so I'd rather avoid spoilers.

RIP KissAnime.
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#189669: Oct 30th 2019 at 2:48:15 PM

[tup] Dracula and Dreamer. Alright, it’s nearly Halloween, and Bobg and I decided to bring back the Malbert discussion for this very occasion. It’s time to settle this case once and for all. Here’s the original post:

Who is King Malbert? What does he do?

Malbert is the king of Malaria (the name of the setting, not the disease). Malaria was once a healthy land that made its living through crops. One day however, Malbert, wanting to make himself rich, famous, and a hero to Malaria, created a storm machine, which produced powerful storms that destroyed the crops. Malbert stepped in, offering a solution to prevent the people of Malaria from starving to death due to inability to grow crops to sell and make money to buy food: Have mad scientists build doomsday machines and blackmail the rest of the world for money, threatening to unleash the machines upon the world and kill people unless the other countries paid them extraordinary amounts of money (in the film, Malbert is shown demanding a total of 100 billion dollars) every year.

Malbert created a system where anyone born with a hunchback is automatically forced to be named "Igor" and be doomed to a life of slavery. They are forced to work as slaves to Malarias mad scientists, being verbally and physically abused and having to do work for them without being paid. If an Igor broke any rules, such as inventing something themselves, they would be executed by being taken to the Igor recycling plant, where they would be chopped to bits and have their body parts recycled for other uses. He has also invented a system where anyone deemed too kind by Malarias standards is sent in to be brainwashed to be evil. He has been ruling Malaria for at least 17 years (the films other villain has been the champion of the Evil Science Fair for 17 years).

In the film, he is tired of dr. schadenfreude winning the Evil Science Fair every year, so he is looking for someone else to win. When one particular Igors master, Dr. Glickenstein dies, the Igor decides to secretly invent his own device to win the Science Fair and become famous. Igor lies to Malbert that Glickenstein is inventing life, something that has never been done before. This impresses Malbert, who agrees to come back and see Glickensteins invention. When Igors creation, Eva, is stolen by Schadenfreud, Malbert returns with Glickensteins severed arm, which Schadenfreud had sent him to show that Igor was lying. Since Eva isn't around, Malbert assumes Igor was lying about the whole thing, and orders Igor to be sent to the recycling plant, stating he will use Igors hunch for a speedboat (how would that work?) Igor escapes with the help of his creations Scamper (an immortal zombie rabbit) and Brain (a Brain In A Jar).

Igor makes it to the Science Fair, where he discovers the storm machine and realizes that Malbert is responsible for the storms that wiped out the crops and nearly resulted in Malarias people starving to death until they started threatening to unleash evil inventions on the world to kill people and cause destruction unless they were given money. While Scamper and Brain try to shut down the storm machine, Igor tries to return Eva (who Schadenfreud turned into a vicious monster) to her normal self. As Igor enters the "Killiseum" (kill and coliseum), Malbert witnesses this but does not recognize him, mistaking him for another common Igor. Malbert, instead of trying to stop the fighting between the inventions and save him, simply tells the audience not to worry about the Igor because the inventions will quickly kill him, showing his Lackof Empathy.

After Igor gets Eva back to normal, he reveals to everyone that Malbert created the storms and did all of these things so he can profit from them and become king of Malaria. Malbert demands proof, which comes in the form of the disabled storm machine falling on him and crushing him to death.

Heinous Standard:

As Bodg stated: “Malbert created a massive storm that wiped out the crops and nearly drove everyone to starvation, then convinced the people of malaria to create evil inventions and threaten to destroy the world if they weren't paid ludicrous amounts of money. He created a system in which those born with hunchbacks were doomed to lives of slavery and would be killed for breaking any rules. He created a system in which people deemed too nice were brainwashed to be evil. He did this all for money and power. That is pretty bad.

The setting has mad scientists abusing their Igors and creating doomsday devices to blackmail the world. Malbert however is ultimately responsible for all of this, so all the evil in Malaria can be traced back to him.”

Having seen the film, I can agree with all of this, and the only other villain is never taken seriously or is anywhere near as evil as Malbert.

Migrating Qualities:

None. He's a smug, pompous man who treats everyone else like they are beneath him. When it comes to him being treated seriously, bodg stated this: “The film is a comedy with lots of Black Comedy coming from the fact that everything is supposed to be evil. Malbert himself has occasional moments when he makes jokes, but this mostly falls under Evil Has A Bad Senseof Humor. He's still depicted as a sleazy and very bad man, and all the people of Malaria become disgusted with him and abandon all respect for him once the truth is revealed. The film ultimately does treat seriously as a very bad man.” I, on the one hand, believe that Malbert’s actions are taken quite seriously enough, and Malbert definitely has jokes, they don’t really migrate him.

Bodg does believe there is potentially one problem with him. In his words: “While his actions are probably bad enough to warrant him this trope, they are mostly in the background. I don't mean that they are Offstage Villainy, I mean that, while we do see plenty of evidence of them, they aren't explored in detail. We are made aware that the Igors are essentially slaves from the day they are born, and who are killed for breaking rules. Aside from being told about this, seeing a few Igors get slapped around, and the scene where Malbert sends Igor to the recycling plant, this aspect isn't explored upon in great detail. We see the place where people are taken to be brainwashed for being too nice, but it isn't a major focus of the film. Malbert himself is a Non Action Big Bad, so he doesn't really do much himself during the film. It isn't until the climax that true focus is put on the evil things he has done and he is truly treated as a very heinous individual. What ultimately gets him treated as a truly evil man is The Reveal that he caused all of Malarias problems himself and that all the semmingly necessary evil done by Malaria was not required and he did all of it just for money and power. It's only when you really examine everything and think about it that you realize how much of a bastard this guy truly is, much like Jacques from Zombie Island.”

In my honest opinion, background or not, it is STILL seen, and does get taken seriously at the end of the film, so I don’t think it’s any issue. It’s definitely not offscreen villainy or fridge horror. I understand his concerns, but I honestly think it’s nothing to worry about, of course, I’m interested in what you guys would have to say about all of this.

Conclusion?

I leaning towards keep, and Bodg has stated he can go either way, but what do you guys think?

Now as the current votes we got this:

[tup]: Me, Falcontalons, Sum Dum Nerd, Brainulator 9, Kylotrope, G-Editor, hegelvonaxel, Cloister The Stupid, Pure Grain Alka Seltzer.

[tdown]: Scraggle, Libraryseraph, DDD, Austin DR, Irrose, Miraculous

Abstaining: Bobq, Awesomekid 42, Beast, Bullman, Sky Cat 32, erazor0707, Elfen Lied Fan 90, Kingof Nightmares, Papyru 30, MGD 107, ACW, username2527

Unsure: Overlord. He said [tup] to everyone he missed when we were still allow to do that, so I’m not for certain if he actually voted for Malbert.

Alright guys, what are your thoughts on Malbert. Even if he doesn’t count, I can at least be satisfied that I at least got an official conclusion for him.

Edited by Michealthehero21 on Oct 30th 2019 at 3:59:43 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#189670: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:00:35 PM

[tdown] Ethel upon reconsideration. [tup] Dreamer.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#189672: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:40:11 PM

[tup] to the Dreamer aka Mister Zasshu.

Unsure on Malbert.

Edited by MasterN on Oct 30th 2019 at 3:40:28 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#189673: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:41:50 PM

Yes to the Dreamer but Michael, what's the additional argument here? Malbert was downvoted and wanting another round of it alone isn't enough reason to relitigate him.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#189674: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:43:38 PM

I mean, from the tally, it seems that Malbert actually got mostly up votes, and discussion fizzled out. I think it's fair game to bring it back since discussion just dropped.

Still abstaining personally.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Oct 30th 2019 at 6:44:13 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#189675: Oct 30th 2019 at 3:43:55 PM

[up][up] I was about to say that... I'm personally a [tdown]

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 30th 2019 at 8:44:34 AM


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