During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
And for today, from one of the most classic of horror novels:
What's the work?
The Monk was published in 1796 by Matthew Gregory Lewis, so famous he became forever after known as 'Monk' Lewis..when he was only 19, to boot. a classic of Gothic Horror and an instant, scandalous sensation (Gothic writer Ann Radcliffe famously despised it)...the novel begins in Spain during the Inquisition, and our 'hero' is Ambrosio, a handsome young monk who considers himself incorruptible....there's like six plots, so I'll kinda skim a bit, but in the pews is a beautiful young lady named Antonia with her aunt Leonella. Don Lorenzo is a gallant young man who falls for Antonia, while his best friend Raymond's girlfriend Agnes is locked up by nuns after being forced against her will into vows...and Ambrosio gets roped into that, while also meeting a novice who is really a woman named Matilda, who begins Ambrosio's descent into sin...orchestrated at the hands of none other than Lucifer himself.
Who is Lucifer?
The source of sin and temptation. Matilda is his agent and Lucifer? Wants one thing: Ambrosio's soul. As holy as Ambrosio pretends to act, Lucifer knows damn well that Ambrosio is a proud, haughty man who cares more for his pride and the appearance of holiness than actual piety...Matilda is a ruthless servant of the devil who sways Ambrosio, little by little, into breaking his vows while Lucifer gets everyone else suffering and nicely tormented through the novel, helping to arrange little, terrible things, like Agnes's arrest and torture by the Prioress of her abbey.
Ambrosio? Spends an evening with Matilda, letting go of guilt for his sin...Satan's plan there gets even nastier: he leads him to other women when Ambrosio tires of Matilda (she's no longer pure, after all, to him) and to an aged woman named Elvira, Antonia's dying mother as a confessor, helping to tempt Ambrosio towards lust for the young Antonia, while providing him a means to rape her...Lucifer helps Ambrosio slip into her room, where he murders old Elvira once she tries to stop him....until Satan helps Ambrosio rape Antonia, and then murder her as well. Ambrosio is caught by the Inquisition in the end and imprisoned, Matilda taking the blame and dying as Ambrosio despairs of torture and death. Lucifer offers him a deal: his soul eternal for his salvation from prison. Ambrosio, feeling god isn't going to help him, agrees...and Lucifer springs the big one on him. I'm quoting it here cause it's one for the ages.
I observed your blind idolatry of the Madona's picture. I bad a subordinate but crafty spirit assume a similar form, and you eagerly yielded to the blandishments of Matilda. Your pride was gratified by her flattery; Your lust only needed an opportunity to break forth; You ran into the snare blindly, and scrupled not to commit a crime which you blamed in another with unfeeling severity. It was I who threw Matilda in your way; It was I who gave you entrance to Antonia's chamber; It was I who caused the dagger to be given you which pierced your Sister's bosom; and it was I who warned Elvira in dreams of your designs upon her Daughter, and thus, by preventing your profiting by her sleep, compelled you to add rape as well as incest to the catalogue of your crimes. Hear, hear, Ambrosio! Had you resisted me one minute longer, you had saved your body and soul. The guards whom you heard at your prison door came to signify your pardon. But I had already triumphed: My plots had already succeeded. Scarcely could I propose crimes so quick as you performed them. You are mine, and Heaven itself cannot rescue you from my power. Hope not that your penitence will make void our contract. Here is your bond signed with your blood; You have given up your claim to mercy, and nothing can restore to you the rights which you have foolishly resigned. Believe you that your secret thoughts escaped me? No, no, I read them all! You trusted that you should still have time for repentance. I saw your artifice, knew its falsity, and rejoiced in deceiving the deceiver! You are mine beyond reprieve: I burn to possess my right, and alive you quit not these mountains.'
This is 18th century devil for "Haha, made you kill your mom and rape and murder your sister, sucker." Ambrosio tries to pray to god for salvation, but Satan is furious at this, declaring "Dare you still implore the Eternal's mercy? Would you feign penitence, and again act an Hypocrite's part? Villain, resign your hopes of pardon. Thus I secure my prey!" Seizing Ambrosio, he flies him into the air and flings him down, where Ambrosio's shattered body suffers for six days before expiring, his soul consigned to hell.
End novel. (it's more bittersweet than downer, since the other characters tend to have happy endings)
Heinousness?
Satan's the worst in story, period. Now, for the 18th frigging century, this level of evil? Not the highest body count, but he's responsible for all the misery there, consigns Matilda and Ambrosio to hell, tortures Ambrosio for a good week to death and oh yeah, the whole "got you to murder your mom and rape your sister" trap...and the spiteful reveal that Ambrosio was going to be pardoned and escape damnaton. TBH, I'm wondering if Satan doesn't entirely overshadow Ambrosio here.
Mitigating Qualities?
He's fucking Satan. No, nothing, nada. Ambrosio is tougher for me and I'm inclined to just replace him with Satan even if he's just a holier than thou hypocrite and bastard by the end. Satan's responsible for everything there.
Conclusion?
I'd say a solid yes
Oh, and BTW, after Halloween, Lighty, Mir, and myself will be working on a collab for In Death. There are around a dozen or so possible candidates, so there may be a page. Depending on if any end up failing the heinousness test (there's a REALLY high standard) or have disqualifying factors. The two current entries will probably get cut.
You're probably right. Lighty did the expansions here
, but I don't think we were doing effortposts back then. And considering the jacked heinous standard...they seem like utter assholes, but not sure they reach CM level. I mean, the series' heinous standard is damn near Criminal Minds level.
Lucifer
- The Monk: Satan, the Fiend, himself is the author of all the misery of the novel. Sending the temptress Matilda to tempt Ambrosio while leading others to pain and ruination, Satan oversees the ruination of Ambrosio and helps to lure him into sin, depravity and dark magic. Making himself party to the rape of the innocent Antonia, Satan sways Ambrosio and manipulates him into murdering Antonia's mother before having him rape and eventually murder Antonia as well. Later tricking Ambrosio into signing over his soul, the Fiend gleefully reveals that Elvira and Antonia were Ambrosio's mother and sister, and sentences him to an agonizing death before claiming his damned soul.
If he keeps, we can rewrite him...truth be told, I'm torn.
Ambrosio is a legitimately awful person. His holiness is little more than a veil for his ego and he delves fully into depravity before long, killing Elvira, raping and murdering Antonia and constantly foisting the responsibility off elsewhere.
More the latter as he needed Ambrosio to damn himself, but there's a lot of nastiness in the novel. The Prioress is a Holier Than Thou hypocrite herself who tortures Agnes, a pregnant woman. Sigh, only one way to resolve this.
Tyk, it's public domain. Start reading.
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 29th 2019 at 12:47:00 PM
Well then, that's another issue. And it also seems Matilda is also partly to blame (though not to the effect Satan is). Personally, I'm tempted to just have Satan, but that's just me.
EDIT:
Tyk, here's the link
.
Edited by ACW on Oct 29th 2019 at 3:46:40 PM

ACW: Before. Lex's the Big Bad while Mongul is just a Arc Villain.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 29th 2019 at 12:13:07 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread