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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#188576: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:04:40 PM

Off topic, but Adventure Time is coming to HBO Max with some specials. Just throwing it out that for anyone who wants to reserve them.

It's Spooky Month!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#188577: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:17:58 PM

@Lighty: Small comments and stuff are fine.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188578: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:19:22 PM

Essentially, the Pijavica sounds unique on paper, and she was when I first wrote her, but since then...we've had Helen Valentine, who runs an entire commune of her own children that she raises as the cult of an Eldritch Abomination complete with vicious blood orgies, and has done so for centuries, with outsiders incorporated into the cult and killed/brainwashed into it...and Azazel who kept his own son as part of the Court of the Broken for centuries.

Everyone can vote how they like, and it's true she has fuck all by way of resources (Whereas Helen has said abomination under her control, rulership of a town and Azazel is one of the most powerful demons ever,) but just want to make that one clear

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#188579: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:25:01 PM

Mm...shit, right. The Never Mythos is in the same continuity as Kindness of Devils. So you gotta throw in Helen Valentine and "Vladik Cardinous" to the mix. I haven't read Reign in Hell either, but from the sounds of it, seems like that story jacked up the heinous standard even more.

Eh. ...Might end up cutting Pijavica and Hargrove.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188580: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:26:40 PM

I'll just note we've well over like a million words done in the whole thing now, tons of villains with unique niches (and the actual majority as non-keepers now) and loads more writing planned, so we've got room on things, but some people are naturally a bit crowded out. By and large, most baddies don't step on one another's toes and ranks/niches/tone, etc. allows for a number, but the Pijavica is one even I think comes up dry at points

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:29:59 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188582: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:31:02 PM

Ah right, Helen, forgot that's the same continuity. And I'm the one who effortposted her! [lol][lol]

But yeah, considering she murderrapetortured her own kids (and bit out the throat of a newborn)...shit, I'll switch to abstain.

On that note, how involved was Hargrove in the snuff ring? It seems Rich thought of it, but it also seems Hargrove did far more than just fund it. And the snuff ring seems unique. Granted, Jacobs himself apparently kills thousands, but after Nyarly resurrected him.

Edited by ACW on Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:32:17 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188583: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:32:16 PM

As the writer? Extremely. He and Jacobs were partners in the endeavor

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188584: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:32:47 PM

Ah, just as I thought. I think Hargrove can stay, at least for now.

On another note, I like how there don't seem to be any Karma Houdinis. Vladik, Ygy, and Helen are, but will reappear I'm guessing (I KNOW Helen will; I claimed the sequels ever since I found out there would BE sequels [lol] ).

Edited by ACW on Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:36:20 PM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#188585: Oct 23rd 2019 at 12:42:06 PM

[tup] Quentin oh god yuck.

I think Anti-Hero is just a more well known term and many think Hero=Protagonist. And it's technically correct since he's the opposite of a hero. I could get into linguistics more but I'll stop.

I will abstain on all Neverkind stuff but Lighty, quick, do a short story that makes her worse so she keeps! tongue

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#188586: Oct 23rd 2019 at 1:07:18 PM

Oh well... Judging by Helen's stuff, yeah, the Pijavica comes up dry and not sure if resources are saving her. Switching to abstain.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#188587: Oct 23rd 2019 at 1:08:21 PM

Abstaining on Neverkind.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#188588: Oct 23rd 2019 at 1:31:07 PM

IMO, Keep Pijavica. I don't personaly see how this is different from any other recources scenario.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#188589: Oct 23rd 2019 at 1:46:09 PM

I'm fine with cutting.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#188590: Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:14:35 PM

Would it be alright if I propose a small rewrite to two current entries we have. The parts my proposed rewrite is changed are highlighted in italic.

The current versions of the Matilda examples from book and play say:

  • Complete Monster: Agatha Trunchbull is the headmistress of Crunchem Hall Primary School who rules the school with an iron fist. Shying away from illegal caning, the Trunchbull opts for more torturous methods easily dismissed by parents as wild stories. A Child Hater extraordinaire, the Trunchbull subjects the children to near-fatal punishments, her favorite being "the Chokey"—a refurnished cupboard laced with broken glass and nails. Out of greed, the Trunchbull possibly murdered her brother-in-law for the inheritance, and violently abused her niece, Jennifer Honey, breaking her arm in a spur of rage. Unrepentant, the Trunchbull threatens to break Miss Honey's arm again when she stands up to her. A psychotic disciplinarian who prides herself with never having a childhood, the Trunchbull set the standard for sadist teachers everywhere.

The play version says

  • Complete Monster: Agatha Trunchbull commits all the acts from the book, along with additional crimes. Trunchbull is a former Olympic hammer thrower, who is depicted in onscreen flashbacks as making money from a circus where she forced her trapeze artist sister—who was pregnant—to work at the circus or face jail, with Trunchbull eventually killing her sister by cutting the rope. The baby—Jennifer "Jenny" Honey—survived. Trunchbull was then invited by her oblivious brother-in-law to help care for Jenny, regularly abusing the latter when her father wasn't home and scaring her into submission. When Jenny's father came home early one day to find his daughter starved and tied up in the cellar, he went to confront Agatha, only to mysteriously disappear, with strong implications that Agatha murdered him. In the present day, Trunchbull became headmistress of a school. She commits all the acts of child abuse seen in the book and locks Matilda in a torture box known as a Chokey, which she regularly used on children. The Trunchbull's cruelty expands in scope when the climax of the musical has her attempting to replace all classrooms with Chokeys to create a school system where children will be tortured and "neither seen nor heard". Already known as one of the most preeminent child haters in adolescent fiction, this version of the Trunchbull still stands out as truly monstrous.

Now here's my rewrite.

  • Complete Monster: Agatha Trunchbull is the headmistress of Crunchem Hall Primary School who rules the school with an iron fist. Shying away from illegal caning, the Trunchbull opts for more torturous methods easily dismissed by parents as wild stories. A Child Hater extraordinaire, the Trunchbull subjects the children to near-fatal punishments, her favorite being "the Chokey"—a refurnished cupboard laced with broken glass and nails. Out of greed, the Trunchbull murdered her brother-in-law for his inheritance, and violently abused her niece, Jennifer Honey, breaking her arm in a spur of rage. Unrepentant, the Trunchbull threatens to break Miss Honey's arm again when she stands up to her. A psychotic disciplinarian who prides herself with never having a childhood, the Trunchbull set the standard for sadist teachers everywhere.

and

  • Complete Monster: Agatha Trunchbull commits all the acts from the book, along with additional crimes. Trunchbull is a former Olympic hammer thrower, who is depicted in onscreen flashbacks as making money from a circus where she forced her trapeze artist sister—who was pregnant—to work at the circus or face jail, with Trunchbull eventually killing her sister by cutting the rope. The baby—Jennifer "Jenny" Honey—survived. Trunchbull was then invited by her oblivious brother-in-law to help care for Jenny, regularly abusing the latter when her father wasn't home and scaring her into submission. When Jenny's father came home early one day to find his daughter starved and tied up in the cellar, he went to confront Agatha, only for Trunchbull to murder him and frame it as suicide. In the present day, Trunchbull became headmistress of a school. She commits all the acts of child abuse seen in the book and locks Matilda in a torture box known as a Chokey, which she regularly used on children. The Trunchbull's cruelty expands in scope when the climax of the musical has her attempting to replace all classrooms with Chokeys to create a school system where children will be tortured and "neither seen nor heard". Already known as one of the most preeminent child haters in adolescent fiction, this version of the Trunchbull still stands out as truly monstrous.

The reason being even without the Word of God saying Trunchbull murdered Magnus, The Law of Conservation of Detail says Trunchbull is guilty; she has every motive, is ruthless and greedy enough to do it, Magnus's lack of reason to commit suicide/abandon his daughter, as well as the horror described in Trunchbull's face when the fake ghost says its Magnus.

A good comparison would be how the current entry of Jack Napier on Batman (1989) just says he murdered Alicia Hunt, removing the possibly murdered from the old entry. Does anyone like or oppose this rewrite idea for Trunchbull's entries?

Edited by Monsund on Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:15:05 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#188592: Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:43:04 PM

I wonder if such changes would violate Speculative Troping, specifically the "unfortunate habit of troping based on what is 'likely' within a work, instead of what's actually in the work" bit.

I remember a case like this (being allowed to write something that "obviously" happened despite not being directly shown) being brought up somewhere on the site before, only it was about Dark Souls instead of Complete Monster. I don't recall what resolution was reached in that case, though.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:46:46 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#188593: Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:43:37 PM

You know, I saw a production of the play version fairly recently, and... I did NOT get the implication she killed her sister too. She's certainly responsible for her death (being forced to perform dangerous stunts while heavily pregnant will do that) but I didn't see anything stating she directly murdered her. Did I miss something or did the EPer get it wrong?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188594: Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:51:04 PM

[up][up] Another fair point. In which case, what should we do about Joker's entry?

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#188595: Oct 23rd 2019 at 2:58:24 PM

Looking at Speculative Troping, I get the impression its for to unfinished works rather then stories that are very much done and repeatedly offer numerous hints.

Edited by Monsund on Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:03:14 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#188596: Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:01:08 PM

[tup] to Josef Mengele, High King Azazel Baal, Martha Patterson, General Ayo Keita, Munkar and Quentin P.

All for keeping both Pijavica and Hargrove.

By the way I found this on Jigsaw:

  • Anna and and her husband Matthew were once very kind, helpful and supportive neighbors of John Kramer, but as years went on she turned out to be nothing more than an evil, selfish, sociopathic witch. She and Matthew argued more often and Anna became increasingly frustrated and spiteful towards their baby, and one night when their baby wouldn't stop crying, Anna smothered it to death with a pillow, framing Matthew for the baby's death and causing him to hang himself out of guilt. She constantly denies that she's done anything wrong to be put in a Jigsaw trap and doesn't show any remorse or sadness over what she's done, even when John directly confronts her about it. Her empathy towards Logan, Mitch, Ryan and Carly were most likely just Bait the Dog Pragmatic Villainy attempts to get them to trust her and help her escape. When she turns the gun on Ryan to save herself, she appeared to be an Apologetic Attacker towards him, but her weeping as she aims the shotgun at Ryan were just Crocodile Tears for her to pass herself as a victim rather than the self-centered and heartless devil she is at heart.

Putting aside how badly written it is, even with my next to none knowledge of the franchise, she's not remotely heinous enough. Can someone please cut.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#188597: Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:12:25 PM

Cut and burned. Messaged the troper.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 23rd 2019 at 6:20:40 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#188598: Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:29:46 PM

Abstaining on the Neverkind stuff.

So, from Getter Robo:

  • Complete Monster: Professor Rando from Go was an Evil Overlord whose mission was to Take Over the World even if he had to kill every human on it. Starting with mass murder, Rando forcibly converted his victims to mindless killing machine cyborgs and unleashed them on the rest of humanity. He had no compunction using nuclear weapons on a city as well, all borne out of his desire to rule the world.

Now, Rando is a keeper IMO, but this entry was clearly done in the Ancient Days before Effort Posts. However, I found the Getter Robo Saga and got the time to read it. The entry has some errors, like, Rando is actually a Big Bad Wannabe and Unwitting Pawn for the Dinosaur Empire. Oh, and he really don't wants to Kill All Humans, he's just willing to kill many of them.

Anyway, I want do a EP for him.

Setting?

Getter Robo Go is the...fourth chronological entry of the Getter Robo series by Ken Ishikawa. Featuring a new team after Ryoma's retirement after the evens of Shin Getter Robo, it features a Older and Wiser Hayato Jin arming a new team to fight against the menace of Professor Rando, a Mad Scientist who wants to Take Over the World.

Well, guess who is the candidate.

Who is Professor Alrich Zu Rando?

A scientific genius, Rando worked in the project known as The Vega Zone. However, Rando used the money to his own ambitions. Creating machines meant to be brain estimulants, Rando secretly brainwashed most the personal in the Pole North. Discovered for Getter Pilot veteran Hayato Jin, Hayato leads a revolt in where the son of the Dr. Tachibana and brother of Sho Tachibama sacrifice himself to save Rando, who losed an eye in the crossfire by Hayato's gun.

Years later, Rando starts his World Conquest by attacking Canadian forces and the Americans who come to help them. Rando rules over a small empire of brainwashed cyborgs, included a revived cyborg of Shinichi, Sho's brother. In the meantime, he worked with survivors of the Dinosaur Empire to get Magma energy and empower his army, promising to help them when he wins.

Trying to get the Getter Robo Go, Rando attacks Japan and sends strange spheres with cables that are actually giant megaton bombs that will explode if they're touched or if Rando wants it. Hayato and the Getter Team see it directly when a entire city is wiped out. Holding multiple Japanese cities hostage, Rando admits that he don't cares if he has to kill more hundreds of thousands if he can Take Over the World.

The Getter Team escapes to fight in the Antartic Front alongside the Allied Forces despite orders from the Japanese government, who surrendered to Rando. The war continues and Rando's forces continue slaughtering American and Canadian soldiers in a full war.

The current Getter Team manages to fight against Rando's army and once the Getter Robo Go is too damaged, Hayato admits crossing the Godzillas Threeshold and decides to use the Shin Getter Robo.

Now weakened for the efforts of the Allied Forces and the Getter Team, Rando is convinced to use his last weapon before time, a climate change weapon that threatens both American and Russian soldiers. Once Rando believes it has done enough, he wants to shut it off but his right hand Count Rasheshi refuses before revealing (to the audience) to be a member of the Dinosaur empire and then betraying Rando, who is angry.

Rando and Raseshi have a short fight in where Rando is killed for the Empress of the Dinosaur Empire after failing to blow his whole base (They can't destroy MY Kingdom!) leaving the Dinosaur Empire as the final antagonists of Go.

Heinous Standard?

Getter Robo has a high heinous standard, in the very first series, both Emperor Gore and Brai anhilated entire cities with plans to anhilate the entire humanity.

However, I feel Rando has the factor that he's a human to stand out. Gore and Brai weren't humans and didn't had reasons to have empathy for the species, while Rando is just a human who said "Yeah. World Domination". The Dinosaur Empire has a Freudian Excuse of wanting to escape from living undergroud, Rando has nothing.

Plus, I feel the whole "threatening to blow multiple cities by using giant dome-bombs while slowly sending more and more" was...pretty fucked. That without getting into the Cyborg brainwashing stuff.

His fight against Raseshi is merely Evil Versus Evil with the obvious "Hey, I want to rule humanity, not anhilate it". Not redeeming. He is angry at being betrayed...because he decided to work alongside the Kill All Humans Dinosaurs ("Who was it that saved you").

Verdict?

I say he keeps. I want to rewrite the entry.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 23rd 2019 at 5:31:24 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188599: Oct 23rd 2019 at 3:30:51 PM

I put him up...a long, LONG time ago. Go right ahead.


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