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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#18826: Nov 9th 2013 at 12:24:56 AM

Klavice, you're able to add it yourself. Ace Attorney is unlocked for now. Maybe today I'll work on combining those Gavin writeups.

edited 9th Nov '13 4:33:21 AM by ACW

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#18827: Nov 9th 2013 at 8:15:02 AM

Did we ever decide on The Kid from The Stand?
EDIT: Also, shall we move the Transformers examples from Film and Transformers (probably should be the same anyway) to Transformers?

EDIT: Actually, yeah, I'll request the move.

edited 9th Nov '13 9:02:28 AM by ACW

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#18828: Nov 9th 2013 at 10:32:59 AM

Allright that makes 3 Votes in favor of Henry Leland. Anyone else?

Or any votes against him?

EDIT: @ brainiac-Debate? Is he even more heinous than Darkseid (yeah I know, he is technically no Supes-villain, but still) ? That would be quite an accomplishmentsurprised

edited 9th Nov '13 10:37:14 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#18829: Nov 9th 2013 at 11:12:26 AM

Actually, the current writeup for Gavin doesn't seem too bad.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#18830: Nov 9th 2013 at 12:03:41 PM

Discworld writeups need expansion. Only Teatime and Wofgang's writeups explain to me why they're so heinous. Interesting thing about Teatime: Can Obliviously Evil be a disqualifier?

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#18831: Nov 9th 2013 at 12:25:27 PM

The book just says that he 'sees people as things' and doesn't seem to care about killing anyone. He definitely knows what he's doing.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#18832: Nov 9th 2013 at 12:40:08 PM

If so, then fine; but the others need expansion IMO.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#18833: Nov 9th 2013 at 5:04:45 PM

@18826: True but I think that's part of the problem. With his power Myx's plan could be so much more grandiose, but instead he contents himself with ruining the life of one man. It just doesn't strike me as sufficiently bad enough given other villains' goals and what he's capable of.

@18829: Yeah, any Heroic Sacrifice or Redemption Equals Death is an automatic removal.

@18834: I guess if this Dark Aegis guy counts, that'd bring it up to six examples, so... yeah I could see a subpage being created. Speaking of which...

@18836: He does sound like a keeper but I'd like to know more about him before weighing in. Does anyone know the whole story surrounding the character? Who he is, what he wants, etc?

@18839: I'd say no to the Kid, he doesn't sound heinous enough compared with Flagg. Flagg may have more resources and acts on a different level, but, from what I hear, Kid's cruelty is only exhibited towards one person.

@18842: Agreed. Those Discworld examples have been a problem for a long time. I actually had a question about one of the examples. It's been a long time since I read Night Watch, but does Carcer ever actually do anything onscreen? From what I remember, all of his worst deeds are Offscreen Villainy. The multiple murders he's wanted for are offscreen, as is the murder of Vimes's mentor. He's never seen torturing anyone despite saying he bought his way into the Unmentionables based on telling them a new technique on how to do so. Vimes thinks Carcer will try to kill his infant son in the end, but Carcer never actually tries to do so. In fact, the worse thing he does onscreen is try to kill Vimes... and he's once seen carrying someone's ear. But that's pretty much it. Everyone comments on how evil he is, including the narrative, and he's built up as some unbelievably vile person but I don't remember him ever doing anything onscreen to prove this. Unlike Teatime who is similarly Ax-Crazy but murders multiple people over the course of the story, Carcer's heinousness is told instead of shown.

edited 9th Nov '13 5:31:03 PM by OccasionalExister

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18834: Nov 9th 2013 at 5:52:03 PM

Here's an edited Kristoph:

  • Kristoph Gavin from Apollo Justice Ace Attorney after spending much of the game as a supposedly helpful mentor. He is also the man responsible for ushering in 'The Dark Age Of The Law' by getting Phoenix Wright disbarred.Kristoph had initially planned on framing an innocent woman for a crime committed by one of his former students, Zak. When Zak hired Phoenix instead of him due to a poker game, a furious Kristoph decided to get revenge. He had gotten a shy artist named Vera to unknowingly create fake evidence to deal with Phoenix. When Zak resurfaced under a new identity years later, Kristoph took the chance to murder him and frame Phoenix. After this, it was revealed Kristoph had poisoned Vera and her father Drew, intending both to die. Vera survived, barely. To pour salt on the wound, Kristoph gloated how Apollo and Phoenix had triggered his plan, causing Vera to bite her nails- when he had planted the poison as nail polish, knowing her nervous habit. He had even started poisoning her when she was only twelve. After her survival, Kristoph simply enjoyed seeing Vera face conviction for her own father's murder. In the end, he was little but a cruel, petty, selfish man obsess with glory and destroying those who stood in his way.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#18835: Nov 9th 2013 at 6:05:36 PM

So. Just saw Thor The Dark World. Sometime in the next few days, I'm sure somebody will try to add Malekith. Don't let them. You have to have a personality to be a CM.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#18836: Nov 9th 2013 at 6:08:21 PM

What is this "Dark Age of the Law" anyway?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18837: Nov 9th 2013 at 6:19:47 PM

I think it speaks for itself.

Ambar, can you redo those Bleach writeups?

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#18838: Nov 9th 2013 at 6:42:17 PM

[up][up][up]I agree with Malekith not counting in the movie. He doesn't get characterized quite enough and I think a case could be made that he does think what he is doing is the best for his people and that all losses are acceptable for revenge. I think the movie also tries to portray Odin as being Not So Different towards the end.

edited 9th Nov '13 6:49:32 PM by TommyFresh

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#18839: Nov 9th 2013 at 7:04:00 PM

RE Discworld ones:

First, pleasantly surprised that Lilly Weatherwax is gone- I've argued against her myself and I'm glad the consensus apparently agreed.

Definite keep for Wolfgang; I'd also probably keep Swing- we get a fair amount of detail about the sadistic torture done by his organization and he's the one who hired Carcer.

Definitely yes for Teatime also- he's a clear sociopath, but of the time that just doesn't care about the interests of other people at all- he would literally kill you as soon as he would look at you.

I agree that Carcer surprisingly enough may be a cut- it is strange- like we are informed that he's a Serial Killer, but I don't think we see him kill anyone on screen (hmm, did he kill a cop or more or less on screen?) and when he works for Swing, he pretty much just comes across as a Mean Boss, and not a particularly cruel one at that.

RE Vorbis, I know this one's been argued in the past. I'd argue that the story presents him at least potentially redeemable. I'd contrast him with Pin or Tulip (forget which one) that when similarly facing judgment in the afterlife tries to bullshit his way out of punishment. Note- Vorbis is definitely a lot worse than this character, but I still think it is a good contrast.

Not sure about the Duchess, but I guess yes.

edited 9th Nov '13 7:23:01 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18840: Nov 9th 2013 at 7:29:41 PM

Here's a rewrite for Alan Morton

  • Alan Morton of the fourth Alone in the Dark Game, The New Nightmare was a Creepy Child who developed an obsession with the monsters in the shadows. When he grew up, his obsessions increased to the point where he began experimenting on corpses to help the creatures escape from the World of Darkness into earth. Alan eventually resorted to vivisecting human victims, among whom was his own father. He also enslaved his brother Obed to help with his schemes. By the time of the game's events, Alan intends to open the gate to the World of Darkness, unleashing its eldritch bisophere to cause The End of the World as We Know It

  • Beldo from Azure Dreams is the most evil man in the whole game. He initially traveled with the father of Kid Hero Koh, Guy in order to find the Ultimate Egg to give him ultimate power and Take Over the World. Beldo betrayed and killed Guy and later killed the father of Koh's rival as well. Beldo mind controlled Koh's partner Kewne, against Kewne's will, to lead Koh to him to unseal the Ultimate Egg, and after killing Guy, he forcibly transformed Guy's partner into a new right arm to replace the one guy chopped off against said partner's will. He proceeds to use Guy's sword on Koh to use Koh's blood to unseal the Egg, mocking him all the while. He even fuses monsters to him against their will in his quest for power.

  • Ignacy from Arc Rise Fantasia was a rival of the heroes' Old Master and is first seen injuring said master fatally with petrifying wounds. Through the game, you hear of evil deeds Ignacy has apparently had a role in: murdering a hero's mother and manipulating loyal warriors to betray their benefactors and murdering them later. Ignacy forces apainful transformation on innocent victims, which makes the heroes kill the victims in self defense and later in the game, Ignacy kidnaps one hero's sister for information. He also attempts to Mind Rape another. He forces a Sadistic Choice that has the daughter of the woman he murdered years past to perform a Heroic Sacrifice to save her sister. After this and being caught for a final battle, he only laughs bitterly how close he was to world domination.

Here are my writeups for Burke and Vince stone

  • Burke from Blow Out is a professional assassin who shoots out the tires on a Presidential candidate's car to send it into the water. While he succeeds in killing his intended target, a woman in the car with him survives. Deciding he needs to eliminate her as well, Burke devises a truly cruel plan to cover his tracks. So there will be no inconvenient questions, Burke becomes a Serial Killer by targeting women who look similar to his target, strangling them to death with a garrotte. He finally attempts to kill the girl, Sally during a parade so her death will be passed off as the act of a random maniac. Burke is indicated to be nothing more than a sociopath using his job to hurt others.

  • Vince Stone from the Fritz Lang film ''The Big Heat' is The Dragon to gangster Mike Lagana. Stone is also far crueler than more vicious than his business-minded boss. When a cop ends up dead and the cop's girlfriend looks like she may talk, Stone kidnaps her and tortures her to death. When The Hero, Homicide investigator Bannion first meets Stone at a nightclub, Stone is punishing a dancer by burning her with a cigarette. When Stone thinks his girlfriend, Debby Marsh, has been meeting with Bannion, he disfigures her with hot coffee and throws her out on the streets. He later attempts to kidnap Bannion's young daughter and carries out the murder of another member of the organization. When Marsh confronts him later and repays the favor by throwing boiling coffee at him, Stone mortally wounds her with a gunshot, giving Bannion a murder to finally pin on him.

edited 9th Nov '13 7:55:47 PM by Lightysnake

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#18841: Nov 9th 2013 at 7:42:47 PM

^ You missed a capitalization of Stone in the "meet in a nightclub" sentence, BTW.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#18842: Nov 9th 2013 at 8:18:15 PM

Ugh...another Galt/Sword of Truth/Neo Nazis dilemma. Book is Left Behind, so it shouldn't be a suprise why!

  • Complete Monster: It does NOT matter what is your faith (Christian or not) you have to admit that Carpathia is one for killing his own mother

This seriously needs expansion. Why? because both sides are equally heinous once you strip away all the author tract. They have a fundamentalist kill-the-nonbeliver view of Jesus and god. To say nothing of the fact that thanks to massive Values Dissonance, God and Satan Are Both Jerks, and like their minions have nearly the exact same goals: Nicholae wants to kill everyone who dosen't worship him, as does Jesus. Nicholae wants to take over the world and establish a one-world religion comprised of people who worship him, Jesus also wants this (and gets this in the 13th book in the series "Kingdom Come"). The only difference between the two is power-levels, and it is a massive difference. Jesus is so powerful that he comes off as a God-Mode Sue, while Nicholae is an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain. The only possible motivation for becoming Born-Again is being on the winning side, not out of being moral.

Heinous scale is therefore somewhat balanced in hindsight. So really needs expansion or another case of "Hatable Protagonists Syndrome" because ask yourselves this: given the twisted worldview of the authors—what if a Christian kills a Satanist mother just because she worships the devil?

edited 9th Nov '13 8:24:45 PM by xie323

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18843: Nov 9th 2013 at 8:52:34 PM

All that matters is Carpathia at the end is genuinely remorseful and realizes he was wrong.

Bam, gone. I could spend literally pages discussing the abhorrent morality of those books, the shit writing, the double standards, the paper-thin characters...but all that matters? Is the writers failed in making Carpathia a CM.

Also, Hodor mirrors my thoughts for Discworld...it feels weird to cut Carcer, but guess we gotta...

Let's finish up X-men animated. We have 'definitely yes' for Apocalypse and Graydon and 'tentative yes' for Sabretooth, and 'maybe' for D'ken. Let's finish that series up.

edited 9th Nov '13 9:07:17 PM by Lightysnake

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#18844: Nov 9th 2013 at 9:32:41 PM

RE Burke and Stone- I think yes for Burke, probably yes for Stone.

I say probably yes for Stone, because reading The Other Wiki and IMDB, Stone does seem to be the Dragon-in-Chief/ real Big Bad of the film. My only question is where he falls on the spectrum between two bit thug and "unusually heinous for a character of that type".

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18845: Nov 9th 2013 at 9:51:40 PM

In a lot of ways, yes. Lagana's ostensibly the boss in charge but Stone is the real 'villain' of the peace and evil in ways he doesn't have to be. Lagana might order someone 'silenced,' but Stone opts to torture them to death, tortures the dancing girl with his cigarette, and his actions to his girlfriend are of his own accord.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#18846: Nov 9th 2013 at 9:58:26 PM

@ Occasional Exister, Dark Aegis had no good reason for what he was doing. He was an Omnicidal Maniac doing it For the Evulz. He has no redeeming qualities and never feels sorry for his actions, he even uses Fantastic Racism to justify his actions at one point. I think the only questions with this character are is he a Complete Monster or a Generic Doomsday Villain and does his destruction of a planet count as Offstage Villainy or a Villainy Discretion Shot? He did destroy a planet off screen, but we do get to see the aftermath of his actions and he came up with justifications for his actions, which seem to go beyond the usual Generic Doomsday Villain, but in no way make him sympathetic.

He only appeared in one episode, so he didn't get a lot of screen time, so we have to base him off one episode.

edited 9th Nov '13 10:22:55 PM by TheOverlord

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18847: Nov 9th 2013 at 10:03:39 PM

Just saw Dark Aegis's entry...yeah, he's the only keep there.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#18848: Nov 9th 2013 at 10:09:32 PM

I think Dark Aegis had a motive for his actions, he had a god complex and destroying things made him feel like a god. Is that enough motive to make him go from Generic Doomsday Villain to Complete Monster?

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#18850: Nov 9th 2013 at 10:11:38 PM

@18847 I've discussed this already in the MCU thread. Even with his motivations and personality (or lack of), deleted scenes or not, he will never count as a Complete Monster due to his empathy for his own people and their returning gratitude.


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