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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#188351: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:43:27 AM

Abstain on Finnegan.

On Bleach guy, bandersnitch you have stated your opinion, and Lighty has made his. I agree with Lighty if he doesn't own it he doesn't decide canon. Kinda of like how Disney decides the canon for Star Wars now because they own it not the director.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:48:07 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188352: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:46:41 AM

Yeah...reading the EP? I have serious agency concerns on Finnegan, and certain histories don't fill me with confidence.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#188353: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:47:05 AM

Abstain on Finnegan per agency issues

EDIT: Also, It's worth noting re: the Bleach discussion that Word of God only goes so far with this trope. If the author wants the character to be sympathetic, but doesn't include that in the actual work, the character can still count.

Edited by Libraryseraph on Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:49:35 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#188354: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:11:23 AM

Look it’s weird.

They describe it as her being corrupted yet she doesn’t appear to really be, not in the supernatural sense.

Corrupted is the word Luther uses when explaining Finnegan to Howard. But either Luther is using the wrong word or doesn’t realise exactly what corrupted means.

The film in no way treats her like victim, she gets no sympathy whatsoever by anyone, even when they try to make it look like she could have a tragic end they subvert it.

Molly asks Howard if he can live with killing his mother, and he says yes, no hesitation or regret or pity towards his evil mother.

They also always talk about her like she’s complex evil and is the one in control.

I honestly think it’s a literally poor choice of words why this is so complicated. The film again doesn’t want her to be seen as a victim so I think they simply used the wrong word to describe Finnegan.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188355: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:13:05 AM

So she's turned evil, forcibly, by something else, the film uses the word corrupted... Look, I proposed Sarento from The Stones of Power, but there were some issues there that made that more palatable than this.

I might need to see this myself, but again, seriously? Concerns. and just because "she isn't seen as a victim" doesn't mean anything.

I'm saying no here. This is a clear cut agency problem if Finnegan's soul was flipped evil and nothing indicates "Oh, I did this of my own free will because I was offered power."

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:18:32 AM

Keshali Since: Jul, 2019
#188356: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:15:24 AM

[tup] Finn the demon albeit just barely

UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#188357: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:20:17 AM

The Nekromancers she corrupts turn into insane fidgeting lunatics forced to say profanity and demonic snarls. They were force feed souls, similar to how Finnegan is a soul eater.

She on the other hand has remained intelligent despite no doubt consuming more souls.

What the Nekromancers show clear are what happens to a corrupted member of their kind and yet Finnegan is completely sane and yet has eaten far more souls.

Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#188358: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:21:23 AM

Said not going to do, but re-thought. But I hope next time I'm abstaining from any characters. Seeing that he was mentioned Anime and Manga's talkpage, I could make the EP.

The Work?

Fairy Tail is a light-hearted fighting shonen about about friendship and similar stuff. Forward to the Grand Magic Games arc, we meet the character, the Guild Master of one of the antagonizing guilds.

Who is he? What has he done?

Jiemma is the Guild Master of Sabertooth. He has a Social Darwinist attitude towards his members. If they do, what he wants, then they are welcome, if they fail to meet his expectations, he will expell them for failing to meet his expectations.

He forces Yukino to strip in front of her guild mates after she failed to defeat her opponent and expels her right after. After Sting and Rogue are beaten he prepares to expell them as well. Then, Lector tries to reason with him, but Jiemma notices the guild mark and nearly erases Lector from existence, just because an "animal" (Lector is a sapient animal!) is wearing his guild mark. Sting, however wounds Jiemma critically and Jiemma ends up thrown away by his daughter Minerva, ending in Sting taking control of the guild.

Some arcs later, we get some flashbacks of him abusing his daughter (calling her weak, refusing to see her as his daughter, slapping her for crying, forcing her to strip and/or abandoning her in a forest).

Forward to Tartaros arc, he choose himself to be a demon and was also turned into one. He swears to Mard Geer to try to usurp him for calling him a servant, but not before trying to kill Sting and Rogue for ruining his ideals and taking over his guild, but ends up taken down by them.

Heinousness?

Pretty high. That he forces to strips someone for losing, nearly murders a cat and abuses his daughter make him a nasty piece of work. He has no high bodycount, but the fact, that he abuses some of his members for failing him make him roughly as heinous in-universe. Also, Jose has no high bodycount either, but stands out in how petty and sadistic he is. He is sort-of a cold psychopath variation of Jose and has also pettiness to his name. And his actions are also treated very serious.

Freudian Excuse or any Mitigating Factor?

None on Freudian Excuse. As for mitigating factors, there is the fact, that he wants to make a strong guild, but at the end, it's clear that's only an excuse for his pride and nothing more. He would abuse anyone, who fails to meet his expectation and he later even abandons his old guild and attempts to murder some of his older members with no regret. He is generally portrayed as a cold-hearted psychopath with no regrets whatsoever, willing to do anything to be the strongest and leading the strongest guild, even if it is a dark guild. Moral agency? Nothing suggests, he doesn't know, what he does. It's similar to that of Light Yagami or Shou Tucker: He doesn't care, if what he does is immoral or not, he only wants to be the strongest, who leads the strongest guild.

Verdict?

Your call.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188359: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:22:58 AM

No to Jiemma on heinousness grounds. He doesn't come close.

Again, Ult...this isn't conducive evidence she had any free will to this stuff.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#188360: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:26:17 AM

I'm going to agree with Lighty here; this sounds more like bad writing surrounding agency issues than any proof of actual agency

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#188362: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:43:40 AM

Nay to Fin and Jim.

RIP KissAnime.
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#188363: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:52:56 AM

[tdown] to Jiemma

Edited by Libraryseraph on Oct 22nd 2019 at 10:53:09 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#188364: Oct 22nd 2019 at 7:56:13 AM

No to Jiemma.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:56:37 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#188366: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:01:21 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188367: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:06:45 AM

It is your choice whether or not to participate, but I'm going to evaluate each candidate brought here on its own merits.

Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#188368: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:07:41 AM

Okay, looks like another no for FT. (As I said, no other characters after this. At least I try.)

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#188369: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:23:08 AM

No need to get mad at us just for having a discussion. That's how democracy works. Take care.

RIP KissAnime.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#188370: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:31:51 AM

If that’s the way you feel then see ya.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#188371: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:38:20 AM

[up][up] We live in a society.

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:38:42 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#188372: Oct 22nd 2019 at 8:56:15 AM

"However her soul being exposed to the internet and encountering the demons led to her being corrupted by them"

Just going to ask : is it clear that Finnegan was corrupted by the demons or things suggests that it's a choice she took willingly? Is it on-screen or offscreen?

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
deathnoteFNBOI58 Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
#188373: Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:03:38 AM

Recently in Mario Kart Tour, Luigi's Mansion's King Boo is going to be added to Mario Kart Tour. It's stated that LM King Boo is a Complete Monster (unless LM 3 goes a different route) and since G Kw B is a friendly trope, doesn't this take him out of Complete Monster territory?

Edited by deathnoteFNBOI58 on Oct 22nd 2019 at 12:05:25 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188374: Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:11:31 AM

My Mario continuity isn’t extant. How’s that work?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#188375: Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:14:29 AM

Personally I'm not inclined to see it as mitigating if he's just a playable racer in the Mario Kart franchise, since it doesn't really sound like it's got the story behind it to indicate he's deciding to race people out of the goodness of his heart or anything so deep.

As an aside are these games out yet? We actually don't talk about spoilers until things become ready for discussion so that people who want to play the games without knowing things ahead can enjoy them.


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