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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

bandersnitch Since: Aug, 2016
#188326: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:14:00 AM

That would imply that the novels and the manga are not set in the same continuity, when they are. Novel Yhwach and Manga Yhwach are the same person. That's also how every other character in Bleach is troped in that regard. The novel versions are treated as the same as the manga versions. Plus, it is not just about tropes concerning the novels, but also the manga. His desire to save his father was shown in the manga for example.

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#188327: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:18:35 AM

I'm not familiar with the work. Anybody else wanna weigh in?

RIP KissAnime.
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#188328: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:24:13 AM

Maybe someone can send some links, conformation from official sources or something, so we can verify if novels are canon or not.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#188330: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:33:46 AM

Does anyone think that putting Yhwach on the NA list would be necessary? From what I'm reading this has been a Recurring issue here.

Edited by Kylotrope on Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:37:46 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
bandersnitch Since: Aug, 2016
#188331: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:36:38 AM

Here are four links:

The first two talk about how Kubo provided information and other stuff for the novels and how they came to be:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/93dxdo/snippet_from_a_recent_four_part_interview_with/

https://www.reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/ag5wp4/afterword_of_cant_fear_your_own_world_by_tite/

Those are an interview with one of the authors and parts of the afterward from Kubo in the novel. Plus in the data/art book Bleach Jet, Kubo talks about the events of the novels and treats them as canon.

https://missstormcaller.tumblr.com/post/181065275297/bleach-jet-artbook-talk-vol-1-translation

https://missstormcaller.tumblr.com/post/181065286617/bleach-jet-artbook-talk-vol-2-translation

It's questions 2, 3, 11, 16 and 26.

[up][up]

When that post was made, the, interview, the afterword for the novels and Bleach Jet had yet to be released, so the information the debate was based on was outdated.

Edited by bandersnitch on Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:40:25 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188332: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:42:59 AM

[up][up] Might not be a bad idea either way.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#188333: Oct 22nd 2019 at 2:44:18 AM

I took another look at The Diary of Ellen. Elfen, Master N, and myself will have quite a bit to discuss once Elfen finishes reading. I have mixed feelings abut the demon due to possibly caring for Ellen, but I can be convinced on him. Ellen, I am taking the Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse stance.

BTW, I have a candidate from a duology I will bring up in the next several days for the spirit of October. I would also like to say that though I haven't seen it, it's nice to get a story that manages to make Joker come off as a tragic character after he's been known as one of the most evil characters in fiction.

jjj
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#188334: Oct 22nd 2019 at 5:06:47 AM

[tup] Nosferatu

Anyway has this character you hate the most in a work or series, yet their not a CM while their's other characters who are but aren't your most hated? I have, and it sucks since I hate this person for being an utter dictator and tyrant, yet sadly he doesn't count for being a well-intentional extremist. The other person is a close worker of theirs, but lacks the well-intention part and did risk the world for their own greed and desire for fame.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188335: Oct 22nd 2019 at 5:35:24 AM

Nothing has confirmed the move is in any way canon that way, and Narita’s last novel wasn’t.

You’re again ascribing to Yhwach positive qualities he doesn’t have and completely ignoring all his negative ones.

He hates the Soul King in the manga for being the obstacle to his world. He never expresses love or compassion for him, and whenever he does express such for anyone, it’s hollow as you get as he continuously betrays or threatens them

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 22nd 2019 at 5:37:30 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#188336: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:04:27 AM

Also merely having a Dark and Troubled Past doesn't disqualify a character in and of itself; if it did, we wouldn't have The Plutonian up.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188337: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:07:50 AM

Here's how I see it: The novels aren't in the manga, ergo I'm not considering them in the manga. Kubo had over 500 chapters to do this in, and he didn't. He presents Yhwach as a sadistic, megalomaniac tyrant who tortures and kills his own loyal followers, indulges in hysterical evil laughter when threatening to 'bring ruin' to the world and for all his pleasantries to anyone, betrays or threatens to horrifically murder them not only if they oppose him but whenever it's convenient.

There's a running trend with this argument to completely ignore all negative traits he has and say "but Kubo intended for him to be an antagonist." Don't care. Kubo presented him as a genocidal villain. The fact that he routinely slaughters his own Quincies is enough evidence for that, and trying to claim the entire species has stockholm syndrome because of him isn't helping that case

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#188338: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:19:14 AM

So all works have to be within the same medium, then?

RIP KissAnime.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188339: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:23:09 AM

At the very least, some kind of official confirmation or indication of canonicity. Light novels sit at a pretty unconfirmed position as far as these go, and people can decide for themselves how to take them.

But the same writer wrote an incredibly contradictory one previously. I take it as a 'what could have been' as opposed to official canon since, again, fully contradictory to the actual manga (and occasionally offensively so in places, like depicting a relationship seen in the manga as violent and abusive as 'oh, tee hee, it's just 'complicated' that one beats the other's head open)

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#188340: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:23:32 AM

[up][up]No but there's an issue when facts are being pulled from a source not canonically acknowledged by the original. It becomes a different version of the character then.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:25:57 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188341: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:24:08 AM

[up][up][up] That's not true. The reason "Ma-Ma" was disqualified was because of a canon tie-in comic, while a prequel comic adds to Immortan Joe's crimes. It's just that, if I'm understanding Lighty correctly, the Bleach novels were never confirmed to be canon.

Edited by ACW on Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:25:39 AM

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#188342: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:24:19 AM

Okay, now I get it.

RIP KissAnime.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#188343: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:24:25 AM

It's more that different mediums often have different canonicity instead.

So the novel, in this case, is not the same canon as the manga. Thus, they cannot be applied to each other when determining various redeeming/non-redeeming qualities. They're different versions of the work and can have different characterization and writing overall.

Shadow?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188344: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:27:35 AM

Or take, for example, Horus Heresy. I believe that's canon.

Or even simpler: Star Wars Expanded Universe.

bandersnitch Since: Aug, 2016
#188345: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:33:33 AM

But the novels are acknowledged by the author himself as canon. The novels are based on the information the author provided and he treated the novels as canon in a recent data/art book. Characterization, plot point and reveals are all based on the input Kubo provided and oversaw.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188346: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:33:43 AM

The author acknowledges them, but he had, again, like 600 chapters to present hsi and didn't. And he doesn't own the work, Shueisha does, and they haven't commented on it.

Unless Kubo says "these are 100 percent what I would have written" that's one thing, rather than just using what he might have had the manga continued, then I'm not inclined much to consider them when determining anymore than the Bleach movies.

Kubo isn't the deciding factor. He contributed to the hell film, too.

We saw the same with Narita's other novel that isn't canon.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:36:01 AM

UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#188347: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:36:52 AM

Okay I'm going to EP this film that he finally watched again and I hope they count.

What's The Work?

Nekrotronic (or Nekromancer outside of Australia) is a 2018 Australian science fiction horror film co-written and directed by Kiah Roache-Turner, who directed the 2014 horror film Wyrmwood.

The story of the film states that during ancient time, mankind accidentally summoned demons into their world using sacrifices to their gods. This in turn allowed the demons to possess humans and reek havoc and chaos across the Earth as well as devour souls.

However a race of humans called Nekromancers (Yes it's a K instead of a C in this film) who born with powers that allowed them to exorcise demons and kill them. And so for thousands of years, the Nekromancers protected mankind as demon hunters and battled the demonic hordes of Hell.

The demons however found a way to go inside the internet and through it can use people's phones and computer to possess people with the right software. However the Nekromancers simply adapted to this though it is still difficult to hunt demons.

The Nekromancers exorcise the demon and placed them in a cube called a Soul Trap and then use a combination of a device, their powers and a pit of tar to summon the demon and give it physical form so it can be killed.

The main character is Howard North, a sewage worker who discovers his heritage as a Nerkomancer when he is in the wrong place at the wrong time. With the help of his best friend turned wraith Rangi and fellow Nekromancers Molly and Torquel, Howard must defeat the demons inside the internet lead by the evil Nekromancer Finnegan.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Finnegan was once a powerful Nekromancer, capable of exorcising demons with a simple touch of her powers, and came from a powerful European bloodline. She was also partners and married to fellow Nekromancer Henry and the two had a son, Howard.

The two discovered that the demons were now inside the internet and so Finnegan was able to transfer her soul into the net and find the demons and track them down and stop their plans. However her soul being exposed to the internet and encountering the demons led to her being corrupted by them and turned on her kind and became a sadistic soul eater who devoured their souls in order to become more powerful and gain immortality.

Finnegan then went after her own son Howard but Henry was able to save him by putting a scrambler on him to hide his presence from the demons and put him up for adoption. Finnegan then has her husband killed by wraiths.

Years later, Finnegan started an online game and internet service called Nekropod, which hidden under the facade of an augmented reality mobile game where you catch ghosts is actually a tool for allowing demons to corrupt or possess humans and devour their souls.

Through Nekropod, Finnegan successfully has millions of humans she can now use as targets for her plans. Finnegan is using the Nekropods to form a giant pentagram in the city of Daemokon so that when it's complete Finnegan can devour the souls of everyone who has the game. Finnegan also has her demons hunt down Nekromancers and cut their heads off to use as batteries for the Nekropds where she forcibly feed them souls to make the pentagram, all while keeping their heads alive and corrupted by the hundreds of souls they are fed.

Finnegan eventually discovers her son Howard when he awakens his powers and tries to have him killed by a demon so she can use his head as a Nekropod. When Luther and his daughters Molly and Torquel save him and Rangi, Finnegan and her demons attack them, leading to her killing Luther and using his head for a Nekropod. It's also later revealed one of the Nekromancers she also used the head of Luther's brother David, which shows that the corruption makes them forcibly curse and spite their loved ones when the heroes steal a Nekropod, which Finnegan tries to seduce Howard yet again in a demon's body but fails.

When he is admitted to the hospital, Finnegan tries to sweet talk her son into joining her and tries to make him eat a human soul trapped in a Soul Trap, dropping any of her nice facade when he questions her and tries to force him to do it, until Molly and Torquel rescue him.

When Torquel tries to blast into the internet to learn the schematics of Finnegan's building, Finnegan instead tries to bodyjack her and devour her soul which leads to Howard trying to free her and accidentally blow up Torquel's head.

Finnegan then begins her plan when the pentagram is complete and it's revealed that she not only wants to devour the souls of the city, but connect into the whole internet and devour every soul on Earth so she can obtain god-like power and immortality.

Torquel, revived as a synthetic human with flammable skin, breaks into the building and blows herself up to kill Finnegan and destroy her connection to the internet. Finnegan does however try and escape but Molly allows her to possess her body so Howard can trap her in a Soul Trap. However Finnegan in Molly's body nearly kills him but they thankfully put her in a cube.

When they try to summon her and kill her, it's revealed the now demonic Finnegan has taken Torquel hostage and decapitates and rips her new body apart. Finnegan then nearly kills Molly by tearing off her arm and devouring her soul. But Howard is able to save her and both him and Molly kill Finnegan, ending the corrupted Nekromancer's reign of terror.

Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?

Now let's get something straight about her being corrupted and turned evil. There's nothing that at all in the film says she was brainwashed or forced into turning evil and none of her actions in the film are portrayed as her being forced to do anything. She's not at all treated as sympathetic and none of the characters even at all believe she's a brainwashed pawn of the demons.

Hell, she has demons as minions so it's clear they may have simply showed her a good time and made her realize that devouring souls and becoming more powerful sounded like a better idea, even if it means forsaking your kind and loved ones. I never got the sense she was forced into becoming evil, and corruption doesn't always mean against their will.

Everything she does in the film is treated as her being completely in control and being the one in control of the demons and not the other way around.

She no longer cares about her family as she had her husband killed and wanted to turn her son into a Nekropod or corrupt him into a soul eater too. She pretends to try and care but when she sees that he can't be turned, she gives up and tries to murder or eat him each time.

Heinousness

How heinous is she? In the film, souls are colored differently. Most souls, human or demon, are yellow in color but Nekromancer souls are green or blue, showing a heightened sense of power or presence. Demons again are colored yellow like humans, possibly to show how they're not so different morally.

However Finnegan's soul is red. Her soul inside the Soul Trap is red and discharges yellow electricity and screeches angrily, showing how she is more evil than the demons themselves. Her physical form when she is revived with the tar is different from the demons or Nekromancers.

For reference, when Torquel, a Nekromancer, is brought back she has green skin and looks mostly human but with some bizarre anatomy and regenerative abilities. Demons are horned humanoids that float and have fiery eyes.

Finnegan however takes the form of a red skinned horrific demon whose depravity is so high she can only snarl and growl that she is so inhuman and evil. This form cast aside any humanity or attempts at trying to appear human and instead reduces Finnegan to a violent, snarling and raging beast hungry for souls and murdering people.

Her plans of course are pretty vile and heinous, as she wants to devour every soul on the planet and become an immortal god-like being, all to satisfy her hunger for souls and power.

Final Verdict

As far as I'm concerned, Finnegan is a [tup]. She is not treated in any sympathetic manner or that her corruption was against her will, therefore all of her actions are her own.

bandersnitch Since: Aug, 2016
#188348: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:38:01 AM

The author was extremely sick and physically unable to continue. And for that matter, the author is one who decides what is canon what is not. Shueisha is just the publishing company. Your comparison with the hell movie doesn't work either since Kubo stated that the movie is not canon and refused to be associated with it.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#188349: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:41:01 AM

Kubo doesn't own Bleach? Huh. Maybe Shueisha should've demanded Yhwach not be such an Anti-Climax Boss.

Even if there's no proof Finnegan was corrupted, "However her soul being exposed to the internet and encountering the demons led to her being corrupted by them" makes me wary. Was there any indication she was not quite right before this?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#188350: Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:41:05 AM

I need verification of this. You say flat out in your post that she was 'corrupted' and then you rely on a lot of 'they MAY just have done this.'

The author was extremely sick and physically unable to continue. And for that matter, the author is one who decides what is canon what is not. Shueisha is just the publishing company. Your comparison with the hell movie doesn't work either since Kubo stated that the movie is not canon and refused to be associated with it.

He could draw a terrible 8 chapter fight with a hand. He could have included tragic backstory for Yhwach. Yes, Kubo had health problems, but he also had like 200 chapters that he put in. Yhwach is given nothing sympathetic or admirable there.

Kubo contributed to this? George Lucas contributed to Tales of the Jedi and the Revenge of the Sith novel. That didn't make it absolute canon. With Narita's sketchy history and lack of backing, I'm counting them as separate.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:44:31 AM


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