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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Keshali Since: Jul, 2019
#187401: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:04:45 PM

Italy simply gets the short end of the stick in WW 2 depictions.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#187402: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:08:45 PM

[up][up] Not that "obscure", but the The Yugoslav Wars were rich with Sociopathic Soldiers from all sides, and a big portion of movies based around them are relatively untouched..

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#187404: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:19:48 PM

[up][up] That's true, I just it would amusing in general if there was a monster in a War of 1812 work. Though the Pig War may be the war least likely to have a monster in it.

Yugoslavia Wars fiction having monsters in them makes sense, ditto with say the Boer Wars.

Edited by Overlord on Oct 15th 2019 at 4:20:48 AM

creativename24 The Chefman Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: In bed with a green-skinned space babe
The Chefman
#187405: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:29:53 PM

The biggest CM in a war would definitely be from the Emu Wars

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#187406: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:34:01 PM

ACW: Small correction on my Joker from Fanscription. He took over the Narrows not the Glades. I got Batman confused with Arrow.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 15th 2019 at 6:37:50 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#187407: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:38:25 PM

Yes to Trask, the Two Sentence Horror Stories villains, David Tate, and Ida. I think I'll go against the grain and say yes to YHVH as well.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#187408: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:39:19 PM

Eh, after mulling it over, I'll say yes to YHVH as well.

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#187409: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:46:30 PM

After spending the day thinking on YHVH? I'm gonna [tup] the classic version. At the end of the day he's the most heinous when you combine I and II and, while he barely does anything directly, his delight in Satan firing the Megiddo Ark and decimating the unchosen of both Earth and the Abyss gives him the required culpability to attribute it to him. Also my insanity worries were unfounded as we have others up with the exact same issue, so it's not disqualifying. I still stand on not crediting him with Aleph's possible reincarnation in Nocturne because, while heavily accepted by the fanbase, it's still never confirmed anywhere.

IV/Apocalypse YHVH is still a hard [tdown] though. He's got too much competition from forces outside of Law and Chaos and I don't buy that he's the exact same character as the classic one.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Oct 15th 2019 at 7:48:00 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#187410: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:47:05 PM

[up][up][up][up] Got it. FYI, in the future, for minor factual errors like that, feel free to request the change yourself (and change the YMMV page).

Edited by ACW on Oct 15th 2019 at 7:47:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#187411: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:50:17 PM

Alright I'll give I/II YHVH a [tup].

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#187412: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:53:28 PM

Yeah I switch to yes on I/II YHVH.

@ACW: Thanks. I will next time. Sorry about that.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 15th 2019 at 6:59:14 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#187413: Oct 15th 2019 at 4:58:08 PM

After thinking it over, I'll say no to Apocalypse!YHVH; even if he is perpetuating a war between Law and Chaos, he's definitely not as bad as he could be.

Still saying yes to the I/II version though.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#187414: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:03:13 PM

@Final I was aware that demons were different but I had considered YHVH to be the same in all SMT games because, you know, he's God; thanks for reminding me that this is not always the case even within the main timeline.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#187416: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:09:28 PM

[up][up] Yeah, you've also got cases like Strange Journey Redux where YHVH is replaced with the female Shekinah. In the expanded series, you've got stuff like Brahman as the Top God for Digital Devil Saga and YHVH himself being a Well-Intentioned Extremist on non-Naoya routes in Devil Survivor, and even then he (via Metatron) only goes off the deep end because the protagonist is going to try and kill him.

[down] I myself am Catholic and tend to put my beliefs aside for fictional portrayals like this, unless it's as a direct attack on religious people just for being religious. SMT isn't; it's all in good fun.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Oct 15th 2019 at 8:13:46 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#187417: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:10:12 PM

Cannot believe we would ever switch from no to yes- usually we do the other way around- but hey, [tup] to YHVH (strictly the I and II versions, that is).

Also, am agnostic independent believer who is amazed and impressed at the diversity in religions we have in this thread, it gives me hope that we can all put our different views on the nature of the universe aside and come to agreements on who the evilest people in fiction are. So Proud of You, thread.

... Okay, I will freely admit how cheesy that sounds.

[up] Yeah, unlike, say, The Last Resurrection, which is more of a direct attack on religious people in general.

Edited by MasterN on Oct 15th 2019 at 5:15:28 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#187418: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:28:55 PM

Has there been an EP for anyone in the Dolph Lundgren film Don't Kill It?

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#187419: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:36:15 PM

No, I've seen it, the film makes it explicit the demon's behaviour is bog standard for its kind who can't be anything but evil.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#187420: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:37:15 PM

[tup] Tate and Ida.

Edited to remove off topic stuff concerning my own religious beliefs.

In any case, I hope that we can continue to get along in order to clean up this trope, and I am proud to be a member of this thread.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 15th 2019 at 8:43:04 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#187421: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:38:53 PM

This isn't really the place for those kind of discussions. You have your right to what you believe, but this isn't really the forum for that kind of stuff.

[up] Though what you said before you removed your original comments does remind me of a story I had just finished writing which has a character in it like you had mentioned.

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 15th 2019 at 5:44:36 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#187422: Oct 15th 2019 at 5:39:13 PM

I don't really care what religious beliefs anyone has. I mean that in a good way, as in it doesn't matter and no one should be treated differently for it. Nor should it matter.

Religious reaction: "Oh, so it's turns out you're Jewish/Muslim/Christian/Buddhist? Oh, that's cool."

Gender reaction: "Oh, so you're male/female/transmale/transfemale/non-binary? Oh, that's cool."

Sexual orientation reaction: "Oh, so you're straight/gay/bisexual/pansexual? Oh, that's cool."

Ethnicity reaction: "Oh, so you're black/white/mixed/Asian/Native American? Oh, that's cool."

Getting back on topic, might have another Daniel Arenson baddie or two to talk about tomorrow if anyone's curious. Assuming I don't get sidetracked by everything and sleeping.

Again.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#187423: Oct 15th 2019 at 6:02:45 PM

[tup] To Ida aka the Japanese version of Goeth

Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 15th 2019 at 6:03:06 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#187425: Oct 15th 2019 at 6:16:38 PM

Any more votes on YHVH?

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 15th 2019 at 10:18:03 AM


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