During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
God, Juzo, Longhena, Daniels, Mae. You know, speaking of God, I've always asked myself why we never gave our next candidate a proper EP, he kinda deserves one.
What is the work? I'm sure most of you know Shin Megami Tensei, that weird game franchise where you battle and recruit figures from various cultures to fight by your side, and if you know me, then you know SMT is one of my all-time favorites. The franchise mas many, many spinoffs and sub-series exploring different themes and topics about human nature, including the famous Persona. I'll be focusing on the main timeline of the franchise, the original Shin Megami Tensei, and since the candidate has a Multiple-Choice Past, I'll go into detail on what we really know about him.
Who is he? YHVH, the deity we all know as God was once an avatar and the primary agent in service of a higher being known as the Great Will, the overseer of the multiverse, until the Great Will itself became fed up with God's egomaniacal need for attention and power across the multiverse. As the Arch-Enemy of Lucifer and the supreme leader of the Forces of Law and its branches, including the human-exclusive Order of Messiah, God mass-produces disposable angels to serve him and wishes to create his own definition of a utopia, a fascist society ruled by him where freedom is a crime and only those who are willingly obedient to him, the Messians, shall thrive. Before Shin Megami Tensei even came into place, God was already wreaking havoc in the original Megami Tensei, having ordered his general, Satan, to start a nuclear war and the subsequent demonic invasion in hopes of exterminating mankind. In the universe of Shin Megami Tensei, God plans on creating a so-called Thousand Year Kingdom in the form of the totalitarian christian-only dictatorship as the base for his utopia simply because he was not worshipped enough.
God obliterates the world with nukes, allowing the first generation of militant Messian gangs to take over the streets and wreak havoc in a post-apocalyptic Civil War with the Gaians, Lucifer's human soldiers; still not satisfied, summons a massive flood to destroy what remained of Tokyo. In the years following God's attack on humanity, the Order of the Messiah gains a huge amount of political support and quickly silences any resistance against them; with the world becoming pretty much uninhabitable and the Order's rise in power, God succeeds in creating his dream, the theocratic city known as Tokyo Millenium, but with his archangels getting in his way and triggering his Control Freak tendencies by not following his rules, God builds an Ark for a select few humans that were chosen by him to create a "new world filled with my thralls" and ultimately seeks to activate a Kill Sat within the Tokyo Millenium to destroy the city with the unworthy inside and "cleanse the earth of its life" as his divine judgement in retaliation for them having supposedly disobeyed his will. Unlike the events of Megami Tensei, Satan betrays God out of disgust towards his acts of genocide and horrible treatment of his own creations, God immediately sentences him to "burn in the unending flames of Hell".
When God is rejected by the protagonist, Aleph, God simply curses him with the worst punishment of them all, God will torture Aleph for all of eternity by reincarnating him in different worlds only for him to be killed in a perpetual cycle of death; a character in the sequel is highly implied to be Aleph's newest incarnation... he dies. In the post-WWIII dystopian setting of the most recent game, God returns once again to release his wrath onto humanity in his quest to create a tyrannical "new millenium" by building Arks filled with kidnapped children from across Tokyo and ordering one of his servants, Pluto, to pollute the air of Tokyo with a Deadly Gas that has 100% mortality rate, and when Pluto is defeated, God simply comes up with a Plan B and orders the execution of all locals at the hands of his other agent to wipe out what remained of civilization. In the Spin-Off, it is revealed that God instigated the Forever War in the first place and purposedly created Lucifer as the obvious villain of the story so people would have to rely on his religious ideology instead, having been using him as his personal Unwitting Pawn all along; with the aid of the Great Will itself, God is defeated for good this time.
Mitigating Factors? God has a Multiple-Choice Past like I mentioned before thanks to Expansion Pack Past and all the Continuity Snarl, he can either be a creation of humanity itself or a Fallen Hero who came to believe in The Evils of Free Will and sees Despotism Justifies the Means as the only solution, none of which are properly explored at all, and no matter his possible origin, God will always be characterized as a megalomaniacal dictator in the universe of SMT. His Even Evil Has Standards towards the archangels is complete bullshit, he doesn't give a shit for morals, he's only furious because their plans are at odds with histrionic need for a Cult of Personality, so this comes across as more of Pragmatic Villainy than anything. His incarnations in other games, particularly Devil Survivor, are more morally-ambiguous instead of villainous, God is only different because these games are their own separate and isolated thing, having no relation with the primary SMT timeline, they are not called "Megami Ibunroku" AKA "Alternate Tales of the Goddess" for nothing.
Heinous? As the the Greater-Scope Villain for most of the events in the timeline, a genocidal bastard in his every appearance and ultimately the mastermind behind the supernatural neverending conflict between the forces of order and chaos, God is the closest thing that Shin Megami Tensei has to a genuine Big Bad, and all for the sake of It's All About Me.
Conclusion? SMT!God gets a
from me.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 15th 2019 at 4:33:15 PM
YHVH has come up many times, he's always been voted down. In II he's stated to be disgusted to the Archangels' plan, according to Gabriel, the one one of the angels actually in contact with him, and he doesn't do nearly enough onscreen in IV Apocalypse. The two appearances are also not canon to each other.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Oct 14th 2019 at 8:41:04 AM
I've searched and nothing about SMT!God came up here, maybe because there are so many Gods? Now I'm curious, what was the motive for him to get downvoted? Wish I was around when he was initially proposed.
IIRC his "disgust" comes from the virtual TYK made by the Archangels being a "fake", the people would worship a fake figurehead, and not him; which is why he gets so furious that he decides to Kill Em All. Still, thanks for informing me!
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Oct 14th 2019 at 11:02:01 AM
Yes to Diablo, Nick, Miss Monique, God, other God, Longhena, Daniels and Tamamo.
No to Poseidon.
I think there is one big Marvel alternate Universe we never tackled, House of M, the timeline Scarlet Witch created where almost everyone sees their wishes come true (but she favors some wishes over others, Magneto becomes ruler of the planet, ends oppression against mutants, but makes humans second class citizens). There was a mini-series that dealt with Magneto's rise to power, where he has to fight the US government and the Vice President....
Who is Dr. Bolivar Trask? What has he done?
Dr. Bolivar Trask is vice President of the US under Nixon (the Watergate scandal was buried because Trask had Woodward and Bernstein killed), who also runs the Sentinel program. Trask is the leading figure in a global anti-mutant conspiracy, with the US having secret mutant detention camps in the US to use mutants as slave labor, Magneto liberates a camp, putting him on Trask's radar.
Anyway, Magneto finds out Genosha is using mutants as slave labor and attacks the island, conquering it and using it as a mutant homeland.
Trask is also secretly supporting his ally Graydon Creed, an anti-mutant activist who promotes genocide against mutants. Magneto decides to get rid of Creed and has Sabertooth kill him. Trask uses that as an excuse to send a strike team against Magneto, made up of Bucky, Nuke and Mimic. Bucky has placed bombs across Genosha (including at a hospital) and will set them off if Magneto does not surrender. Bucky kills Xavier and Magneto kills Bucky in response.
Magneto is really angry now and attacks the White House. Trask uses that as an excuse to try to nuke Genosha. Trask takes to a helicarrier and fires several nukes to Genosha, but Magneto is allied with the Inhumans and Blackbolt destroys all the nukes. Trask orders that the Inhumans city of Attilan be nuked too, but since it is located in Tibet, his subordinate Dum Dum Dugan, points out that it will mean war with China. Mad at this turn of events, Trask orders as many nukes as possible be fired at Genosha, saying that they cannot all be stopped.
Magneto attacks Trask and Trask has his special Theta Sentinels (not made of metal) attack Magneto. When Dugan notes this will likely result in the destruction of the helicarrier and all of their deaths, Trask does not care, if he dies, it will be worth it to take Magneto with him. As a Sentinel fires a laser blast at Magneto, Magneto uses his powers to put Trask in its path instead, killing him. Anyway, this whole event allows Magneto to take over the world.
Is he heinous by the standards of the work?
For a timeline where a villain takes over the world, House of M is not that bleak. Magneto may treat humans as second class citizens, but he is not a genocidal tyrant like Red Skull or Apocalypse, so this timeline is not too bad in terms of heinousness.
Now in this story, Magneto threatens to sink Genosha unless the government surrenders to him, so he can create a mutant homeland, which is pretty ruthless, but that was because of the Genoshan government was abusing mutants and Magneto wanted to stop it. Trask was willing to nuke Genosha (and considered nuking Attilan) because he was a bigot.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
Nah. Trask is just a bigot. He claims to be fighting for humanity against mutant domination, but he has reporters killed to maintain his power, is not bothered when Creed is dead, despite Creed being his friend and is willing to let everyone in the helicarrier die so he can kill Magneto.
Final Verdict?
A keep for the not so good Doctor. Certainly, a interesting keep, considering his 616 counterpart regrets creating the Sentinels.
Edited by Overlord on Oct 14th 2019 at 7:15:06 AM
Finding hard to really EP anything. Most of the stuff I'd like to cover is taken or doesn't count. I'm trying to find media that could count but it's hard. I know I've been suggested to look into certain stuff but I need to have interest in it to really wanna look at it.
I did have a possible example for a book but I can't find it or read it online.
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What are you interested in? I often stick to stuff I am interested in, which is why I propose a lot of comic book villains and characters from Star Trek, along with the occasional horror film and artsy film.
I could give you a list of possibly interesting things that could have monsters in them (though the reason I did not tackle them is due to them being somewhat long).
Edited by Overlord on Oct 14th 2019 at 7:10:03 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Also abstain on YHVH.
And Salem does not count because she is an Affably Evil Benevolent Boss.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Ehhh, of all the reasons she Dosent Count I don't think that one holds up well when the show Explicitly states that she "Uses people til they're no longer useful" and seems to be Affable out of a manipulation tactic as opposed to Geniune care about them.
Edited by Kylotrope on Oct 14th 2019 at 7:50:35 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here

Also, I decided to start looking for unapproved examples and potholes again. Starting with the A's in Main.
Angel/Devil Shipping:
I think Lighty already clarified that Salem doesn't count.
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Oct 14th 2019 at 6:15:52 AM