During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
So dunno what happened here.
Abraxas
Anyway I got nothing for now from what I've read. I read The cheerleaders (Too generic. Dude just kills two people with statuary rape), Boneless Mercies (Fasctining and beautiful book. Main villain doesn't count. She'd motivated by the death of her daughter's who were killed by humans which caused her to lash out and attempt to destroy humanity in turn) and a room away from the wolves (No clue what happened here. Book is too trippy) . Well back to the drawing board.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yes to Abraxas.
@Delphine: Not feeling the quote; it'd work better for Sadist. A better quote would talk about how the character has no standards, redeeming qualities, or sympathetic backstory on top of their atrocities.
Edited by falcontalons on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:01:07 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Figured I would get accused of only caring about gender.
Thing is, the only reason Diva got brought up is because Ellen from The Witch's House, an approved female CM, got a prequel novel, the Diary of Ellen, that detailed her Freudian Excuse and succeeded in making me feel incredible sympathy for her, and I felt that she no longer qualified as a CM and should be cut. Another poster argued that her backstory does not matter, because of all the evil things she did. I said that it is true only if the backstory is intentionally flimsy.
Diva was an example of a character I did not feel sympathy for but does not qualify as a CM because the story does feel sympathy. For a male example, Bryce Walker (yes, I know you all are sick of this, but bear with me here). Most people do not feel sympathy for him even after season 3, because he is a Serial Rapist, but because the show portrayed him sympathetically, we had to cut him nevertheless.
The point is, any sympathetic backstory must be intentionally flimsy for the character to qualify, and my argument is that Ellen's is not. Rather, it makes her into a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds.
Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:09:20 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Even if the prequel does end up portraying the character as sympathetic, it is entirely possible that her actions in the original story may very well outweigh any possible sympathetic qualities she has.
On a different note, a candidate can be an Obliviously Evil Complete Monster, assuming one lacks altruistic qualities.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 12th 2019 at 9:08:56 AM
Okay so I read the hollow girl. A fascting look at romani culture and mysticism. Dunno though of the five bad guys who lead the near fatal beating of a dude and the rape of the heroine. Uh not sure if they rise up to cm level :
- Temosin : Since his mother knows that her son will die. She brings him in and aplpgises and the dude becomes her magical servant to help her get her revenge on the others. She also cuts our his eye but uh that's better then his life. He doesn't really have any independent crimes as well.
- Banden: She beats the dude and removed his tooth. Before exiling him for good.
- Mander : Impalyed on a sacrecrow with his hand then cut out. She did show mercy and let him get medical attention later before he's kicked out of the village. Too much of a lackey. Plus he seems to genuinely view the others as friends.
- Caden : In fear of what would Happen to him since he didn't apologise. He tried to burn down the house where the heroine and her grandmother live. Only for them to come to his house. He then took his infant sister hostage and threatened to knife her if he wasn't let go. So her grandmother blessed the baby with the ability to survive fire and then set him alight. So he burned to death. Not sure. I dunno he strikes me as more a coward then pure evil. He's probably the closest though with that final awful stunt he pulls so what do you think.
- Silas : The chieftains youngest son and there leader. His father having covered for him in a previous time he nearly accosted a female before this. Led the assault and rape and later tried to force her into marriage with him. Uh not quite sure. I'm not sure he does enough.
Edited by miraculous on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:11:33 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
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If so, then why was Queen Myrrah cut? Is this not the same thing? Character initially portrayed as pure evil bitch gets sympathetic backstory, even though actions in main story outweigh sympathetic backstory?
If Myrrah got cut for that reason, then so should Ellen, because dear lord, that poor girl needed a hug.
Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:13:47 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Yes to Stewart. N, take it back a notch. I missed this Ellen business and I’ll hear you out if you’ve got counterpoints but having seen Blood+ I’m not much humouring these Diva complaints. Her whole sense of morality is fucked from her upbringing and as Lighty pointed out, her acts are still presented in a horrific light. Bryce churning up disgust among fans is delving into a different series and has no bearing on how Diva is portrayed.
Abraxas and Stewart
I'm going to say this about Diva, her sympathetic backstories aren't the only reasons why she doesn't count. She can shown genuine love, seen with her pregnant children that she genuinely seemed happy to be having, and as she mentioned she never knew humans at all. All she knew were chiropterans and the humans she did know tortured and experimented on her for many years. You can say her actions are horrible and I ain't arguing there, but Diva's probably an example of someone who doesn't know what they are doing is horrible, or doesn't agree to it since it's a "human" way of thinking and she has always hated humans. I mean she raised a point saying she never was raised like humans, and was always raised as a chiropteran by Amshel.
Personally I do feel bad for her and she is one of my personal favorite villains in anime, but I can understand what your getting at. If she was ever EP, I'll put it out there, I'll immediately
.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:20:29 AM
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Very well, I will not mention Diva or any other character besides Ellen, who is my focus.
Original post with my arguments for cutting Ellen, by the way.
Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:22:54 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Master N, I don't know this story, but, like I said:
You mentioned this was a prequel?
It's entirely possible that the character's tragic backstory is undermined by her "later" actions in the original work.
In this case, I would suggest a full scale anti-effortpost is in order if you direly feel she needs to be cut, and then depending on thread consensus, we either cut her, or we keep her.
Either way, I think this case may need to be examined more closely.
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I may have missed that part.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 12th 2019 at 9:26:21 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
@ElfenLiedFan90 is reading the story, I believe, but you make a good point.
Anyone else want to read, so I can get a third opinion? And fourth and so on? The more people have read the story (and played the game/watched an LP), the better informed the final decision will be.
Original post
also contains link, by the way.
Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 6:40:35 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

Sure to Abraxas.
Another potential quote I found.
Bridget: (Muffled) I'm not scared of you!
Radford: Yes, I'd rather you be able to scream. (Removes gag)
Bridget: There's nothing that you could do to me that hasn't been done already!
Radford: (Observes scars on Bridget's arm) What your daddy did is nothing compared to what I have in store for you. You're gonna wish you could die!
How's this?
RIP KissAnime.