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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#186951: Oct 12th 2019 at 4:59:25 PM

"So, my main concern is whether the prequel presents Ellen as sympathetic."

There's plenty of works where the writer clearly intend for the Audience to feel bad for a Charachter and failing miserably. The Mummy from the 2017 movie and Carl Tanner from the flash are great examples of that

Things are really about to get Fun around here
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#186952: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:00:32 PM

[tup] Mr. Frost. [tdown] Pumpkin Jack.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#186953: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:03:59 PM

[up][up] But, @Kylotrope, are those two approved CMs?

Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 5:07:34 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#186954: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:05:02 PM

Ahmnent is so weird. Did the producers not realise that well she did get screwed over in succession for the throne that murdering her infant brother and family and then trying to help Satan end the world was a bit....much

[up]Yeah. Carl's oh so tragic excuse is that he was born poor so in order to erase his "shame" he's going to murder the entire homeless population of the city. The writers didn't realise how selfish and over the top evil that comes off as.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 12th 2019 at 5:07:29 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#186955: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:05:15 PM

[tdown] That pumpkin fella.

Just watched a German film with a sadistic Psychopathic Manchild SS soldier as the main villain. He's cruel to the core but doesn't drink because his mother would get mad at him, that's honestly the most stupid redeeming quality for a Nazi that I've ever seen just bugs me

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#186956: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:10:51 PM

Oh and speaking of tragic villain...

No one counts in Granbelm. End of story. Suishou is the closest one that this series had but her Freudian Excuse is just too strong, I can't overlook it. Basically she's a girl who wanted to become the greatest mage of all time. And as a result, she made a pact of Magiaconauts. Except, Magiaconauts didn't accept her as the mage successor and as a result, she become much more unhinged as she is today. In conclusion: She got screwed by the Magiaconauts ala Hel from Order of the Stick.

Ask ~Iaculus if you want as he also watches Granbelm too. He probably agrees with me.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186957: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:14:17 PM

Alright, proposal for tonight....kind of unsure on some of the above, TBH

What's the work?

Lights Out was a radio program that began in 1934, which would bring in voice talent to deliver an often horror-themed half hour play. This is from the episode Murder Palace and its owner, Mr. Stewart

Who is Stewart?

An avuncular, dapper old gent who owns a mansion...in truth, based on HH Holmes, Stewart is a depraved serial killer who has turned the mansion into a death trap. Women are sent an invite with Stewart looking for help...maids, housekeepers, etc.

Except...when brought over? Stewart traps them in the house and subjects them to a method of death or another he's devised, with a number of ghastly traps. Asphyxiation, dropping the floor out to deposit them in a vat of lime, or as the fate that befalls a woman named Ellen in the prologue, being pushed into a vat of went concrete and left to suffer as it hardens about her.

stewart has been about this a while. Wanting for nothing, he simply does it for the joy of the kill, cheerfully remarking he's experimented on so many ways to kill the women...when a new woman answers the ad, she turns out to be the sister of Ellen, investigating her fate and trying to avenge her...Stewart seemingly has her and plans to place her in a room where she will have the air pumped out and suffocate...only for her, after she hears everything with Stewart gloating at length over what he intends? She pulls a gun and forces him into the room...and turns the machine on, leaving Stewart to die in his own death trap.

Any mitigating Qualities?

As based off HH Holmes, not a damned thing there. He's as atrocious as you'd expect, with enough to establish a pattern, 30 victims and horrendous cruelty involved here. He comes off as a sweet old gentleman only to reveal his true colors as a psychopathic killer who loves being able to murder people in inventive ways.

Conclusion?

A keeper.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#186958: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:15:22 PM

Well, look at Diva from Blood+. The writers clearly intended for her to be sympathetic. Thing is, while she starts that way, she not only murders a whole lot of innocent people, but rapes and kills Riku, a 13-year-old boy. Even after this blatant Moral Event Horizon, the story still treats her as sympathetic, to the point that the heroine Saya cries for her upon killing her, which is why she technically does not qualify as a CM, even though, to me, she is every bit as bad as approved CM Amshel himself, and only uses her backstory as an excuse to be a murderous psycho. But because the writers consider her sympathetic, she does not qualify, even though she more-than-passes the heinousness standard (again, she killed many innocents and raped a boy).

Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 5:22:18 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186960: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:17:24 PM

Diva also has the midset as a child and doesn't realize her actions are wrong, as horrific as what she did to Riku was.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#186961: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:19:16 PM

[tup] Stewart.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#186964: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:21:53 PM

[tup]Stewart

Wait why are we discussing Diva isn't her FE pretty bad. Not like I grew up poor so I'm going become a mass murderer or passed over for the throne. Meh I'll damn the entire of humanity with help from Satan. I mean it really messed her up.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 12th 2019 at 5:22:24 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
IukaSylvie from Kyoto, Japan Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#186965: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:23:30 PM

[tup] Stewart.

Following the trend, I don't think the special task forcenote  from Tweeny Witches counts either. The closest thing they have to a unique niche is that after Biris abandons a (presumably) dead fairy because fairies have no value beyond their body parts, Nerabu speaks about how they deserve to have at least a little "entertainment" with the fairies they capture and that Biris suggests eating the gryphon fairy they're chasing. Even disregarding the commonness of capturing fairies in the setting, their idea of "entertainment" is never expanded, and we never see anyone trying to eat a fairy in the franchise. Not even the trio's rebellion against Atelia stands out because the wizards do the same thing (though heroically) to Grande.

Edited by IukaSylvie on Oct 12th 2019 at 9:48:01 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#186966: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:24:08 PM

Does not matter. Diva is a mass-murderer and rapist, and the only reason she is still considered sympathetic while Amshel is not is because female rapists are not taken as seriously as male rapists.

Or take the aforementioned Suishou. As far as I know, she has no reason behind wanting to be the greatest mage besides power, so her being denied it and going on a murder rampage is extremely selfish. I am sorry, but since when was wanting power considered a valid sympathetic backstory? Is that not basically Villainy 101? Was Palpatine supposed to be sympathetic because no one would let him rule the Galaxy until he fabricated a war to justify is rule?

Edited by MasterN on Oct 12th 2019 at 5:28:06 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
TheAlmightyKingPrawn Darkwing Goose from Surrounding the mind of A Self Called Nowhere Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Darkwing Goose
#186967: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:24:48 PM

[tup] Stewart

SP00PY month!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#186968: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:25:50 PM

No, it's because Diva was an experimented on child who has no idea her actions on wrong. This is off topic, but her rape of Riku is treated as appropriately horrific, in and out of universe. Retaining a measure of sympathy for Diva doesn't alter that. Robert Quarles from Justified rapes and murders young men and still maintains some pathos because of how tragically fucked he is by his own abuse.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#186970: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:28:51 PM

before the thread goes off topic

[tup] stewart

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#186971: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:30:20 PM

Sure to Stewart.

RIP KissAnime.
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#186972: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:34:11 PM

Sure to Stewart.

New entry on my list: Henry Silva kills 1 in Above The Law.

Edited by k410ren on Oct 12th 2019 at 8:35:37 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#186973: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:37:07 PM

Sorry if I am taking the thread off topic. The main reason I brought Diva up is to argue that a character cannot be considered a CM if they are treated as sympathetic by the story, which is what I feel is the case with the Diary of Ellen and its title character.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#186974: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:43:24 PM

Another character from Vampires Dawn. At least someone who can be said to have a clear moral agency. (Once again a game I know well.)

What's the work?

Vampires Dawn is about a young man named Valnar who lives with his wife Aysha in Klennar. Valnar suffers from nightmares and visits a doctor get better. The same night his wife is kidnapped and seemingly murdered by Abraxas. In Shannar, vampire Asgar visits Alaine in a place for "sick" people. Later, Alaine is executed for being "sick". Right after, Asgar massacres the city for doing so and has Alaine buried. Then Valnar and Asgar meet and the latter tricks the former into reviving Alaine. So, Alaine is revived as a vampire and Valnar is also turned into a vampire. Valnar considers suicide, but Asgar tells this isn't the way, because if you die as a vampire, you get into the bloodhell where you're tormented for eternity. So, the vampire trio starts their adventure with several main quests and many sidequests.

Who is he?

Abraxas, the guy who seemingly murdered Aysha/Molana. As it turns out, she was incapacitated (impaling through the heart paralyzes a vampire, she is one and Abraxas is one, too). But Valnar didn't knew that and tried to revive her and Aysha/Molana (first is an alias, last is the character's real name) became insane and had to be found again. Here is the list of his crimes:

  • 400 years ago he murdered Asgar's step-parents. He almost did so with Asgar, but Vincent Weynard stopped him and Abraxas escaped. This ended with Asgar becoming a vampire.
  • Was nearly killed by Vincent, but decided to join him in wiping out the vampire race, instead.
  • Is a domestic abuser of Molana. She decided to flee from him.
  • Has her brutalized and incapacitated (she lost a lot of blood), but not killed.
  • Made several attempts on the heroes' lifes.
  • By the present day, the vampires are almost extinct. We see three of four of them killed by him. One begging to be killed and either the hero Valnar or Asgar the one to mercy kill the survivor.
  • When confronted, he says he wanted to make Valnar to become the bait for vampires, before fighting Valnar and Alaine for the last time before they kill him.

VD 2:

  • In the Blood Hell he blocks Alaine's path, but is soon after absorbed and erased from existence.

Heinousness?

The game has a very high standard: Villagers killing "sick" people out of fear or hatred, Asgar destroyed a town, Aysha/Molana while insane turned a town into a zombie town and Vincent Weynard (the first vampire) starting the genocide of vampires, all so he could become famous. The sequel has Ghadar and Jinnai/Ustra causing a near-apocalyptic event with the former massacring castles with his partner Gorgoth and the latter betraying the clan, killing their strongest army. Okay, Abraxas cannot compete with Vincent, Ghadar, Morlon (the Elras possessing Vincent), Gorgoth or Jinnai/Ustra. All are more powerful than he is. But condemning a race to the Blood Hell all for money might be enough for someone like him to stand out. Most vampires kill humans, Abraxas is a vampire who kills other vampires for money or so he can have a more beautiful tower.

Also, Aysha had also several humans killed, King Gerald joined Vincent (indirectly and secretly too, but only because he feared them and Vincent was possessed by Morlon, one of the Elras and they have agency issues. Also by the second part Morlon didn't seem to want to become famous at all and was interested in his schemes. And Ustra with his ressources didn't do much when compared to the three Elras, even taking out the "creating vampires, then put them to the Blood Hell, then get powerful enough to use the stone tablet" scheme. Ustra seemed to become strong enough by his own.

Freudian Excuse?

None. Vampires can decide if they become good or evil like the player character can. So vampires can choose. Also, no tragic backstory as well.

Mitigating factors?

Him trying to survive isn't played for sympathy, he has agency and he also doesn't love Aysha/Molana, keeping her as a "treasure". He also fears Vincent rather than being loyal to h and in part 2 he doesn't seem to block Alaine so she could see Vincent out of loyalty, as much he wants revenge for being killed or to spite her for that. So, nope. There is nothing sympathetic about him.

Verdict?

Does he enough to measure up in this Crapsack World? You vote.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#186975: Oct 12th 2019 at 5:46:43 PM

@MasterN: We talked about this before. It is not always about gender. You said you were gonna lighten up on that whole angle. >__>

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

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