TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#186801: Oct 11th 2019 at 3:35:42 PM

I'm not surprised Satan has the most versions; he's a Public Domain Character that most religious folk view as the ultimate evil

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#186802: Oct 11th 2019 at 3:59:28 PM

Also, something I'd like to ask? Where do we stand on Sebastian Caine from Hollow Man? That was brought up a few pages back, we got some votes both defending and arguing against him, but then discussion kinda... petered out. The agency concern is still a valid query to me, and with such a clear divide even now I'm not sure it's an issue we're giving proper scrutiny. I think a decisive vote is required ala what we did for Redd White when we went around in circles about him.

For the record, by the way, on another brought up during that time, I'm still in support of Tyreen. I'll wait for Age if and when he responds, but it still to me sounds like she's a country mile worse than Troy when push comes to shove and any redeeming qualities sound questionable at best.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#186803: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:06:21 PM

Keep Caine.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#186804: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:07:20 PM

I vote to keep Caine as well, on the grounds that he knew of the side-effects and accepted them anyway.

Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Oct 11th 2019 at 4:08:58 AM

RIP KissAnime.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#186805: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:16:53 PM

Abstaining on Caine.

About Remy...old or expanded entry?

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#186806: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:20:46 PM

On the subject of Tyreen, didn't her brother Troy get enough votes to qualify as well? Why doesn't he get a write up?

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Oct 11th 2019 at 7:21:07 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#186807: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:21:26 PM

[up] I think we decided to wait until... someone (can't remember who) got a chance to weigh in.

AgentSkyblueM7 Since: Feb, 2015
#186808: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:32:19 PM

[tup] to Asimov on one condition: We should at least clarify that this is an Alternate Timeline version of him who's worse than his original counterpart. Something interesting to note is that the first game's materials implied he was the one who killed Copen's father and started his path to vengeance, since the culprit was only described as an Azure Striker, and the only other one introduced back then was Gunvolt, but the newest game doesn't seem to confirm or follow up on it anywhere.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#186809: Oct 11th 2019 at 4:40:09 PM

I'm fine with that, as we do the same with Byakuran from Reborn. He needs a bit of tweaking.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#186810: Oct 11th 2019 at 5:52:01 PM

I'll just use Remy's old entry. De-potholed:

  • Remy Duvall is a Blue Blood of New Bordeaux, and the host of its widely popular "Native Son" radio broadcast. On the air, he presents himself with a folksy, gentlemanly demeanor while he espouses white, Christian values. In private, he's the militant leader of the Southern Union, a white supremacist group, and in league with the Marcano Crime Family. Under his leadership, Duvall's group beats and murders blacks, helps the Marcanos in their PCP operation, and, vilest of all, literally sells blacks into slavery for wealthy whites, a crime that disgusts even other mobsters. After Lincoln Clay dismantles his operations, Duvall gathers his followers with the intention of leading a manhunt for Lincoln, which involves marching them to Delray Hollow and burning it to the ground in revenge. Though Duvall claims to love his city and want to protect it, he's ultimately a self-serving hypocrite who thinks the city belongs to him and only cares about Christian whites, and he's even willing to harm them through his drug dealing and criminal activities if it will benefit himself.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#186811: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:01:20 PM

Also, as I mentioned earlier. Besides this stuff, a rewrite for tomorrow.

Current:

  • Katekyō Hitman Reborn!: The future version of Byakuran from this Shonen Jump series is the Boss of the Gesso Famiglia and the Big Bad of the Future Arc. Using his ability to to communicate with and gain knowledge from every other Byakuran in a different parallel universe, he conquered each and every one of them until the only one left was the main universe. He planned to cement his grip on all reality by obtaining the Tri-ni-set; first ordering the slaughter of the Vongola family itself and their friends and families, then releasing Non Tri-ni-set radiation into the atmosphere in order to kill all Arcobaleno members. While he displays a cheerful disposition around his subordinates, it's only if they hold his interest. In reality, he's ruthlessness and cruel. Once he "gets bored" of someone, he won't hesitate to have them killed. He will do anything to achieve his goal, not caring if it would mean sacrificing innocent people (who he refers to as his toys) or destroying the world.

Proposed rewrite:

  • Reborn!: The future version of Byakuran, from the Future arc, is the head of the Millefiore Family. Using his ability to to communicate with and gain knowledge from every other Byakuran in a different parallel universe, he conquered each and every one of them until the only one left was the main universe. He planned to cement his grip on all reality by obtaining the Tri-ni-set; first ordering the slaughter of the Vongola family itself and their friends and families, then releasing Non Tri-ni-set radiation into the atmosphere in order to kill all Arcobaleno members. While he displays a cheerful disposition around his subordinates, it's only if they hold his interest. In reality, he's ruthlessness and cruel. Once he "gets bored" of someone, he won't hesitate to have them killed. He will do anything to achieve his goal, not caring if it would mean sacrificing innocent people—who he refers to as his toys—or destroying the world.

Edited by ACW on Oct 11th 2019 at 9:01:54 AM

Anicomicgeek Burning MireGoji from Japan (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Burning MireGoji
#186812: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:23:33 PM

Last year, I'd proposed adding the version of the Joker from Miraculous Knight. After getting enough votes, I'd done a write-up—but I never heard back from anyone. Thing is, someone recently added a version of said write-up to a YMMV page. So, what should I do?

Troper Wall * DeviantArt
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#186813: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:42:16 PM

You should have posted the writeup in the page. If somebody posted a version without taking it through the forums, remove it, and replace it with your writeup.

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#186814: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:44:47 PM

Sorry I have not been around for a while, just swinging by now and saw that apparently someone lodged some counterarguments against Tyreen, I think? Could someone link me to them, and I'd be glad to offer my own thoughts, as I fully believe she still counts.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#186815: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:45:34 PM

Though one thing: Is the setting of ML not conducive to a Joker, or is it still relatively feasible?

Anicomicgeek Burning MireGoji from Japan (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Burning MireGoji
#186816: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:48:44 PM

You should have posted the writeup in the page. If somebody posted a version without taking it through the forums, remove it, and replace it with your writeup.

And posted in the sandbox. Thanks.

Troper Wall * DeviantArt
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#186817: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:50:39 PM

Leaning cut on Caine.

@AgeOfTropeEmpire: The arguments against Tyreen started here.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#186818: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:58:07 PM

Also Age, what are your thoughts on Arkham!Firefly?

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#186819: Oct 11th 2019 at 6:58:30 PM

[up][up] Ok, having read those, I still say Tyreen counts and Troy....I dunno on him.

First of all, Tyreen does not get "freaked out" when hearing Katagawa murdered his siblings. She says something to the extent of "Guy even murdered his own siblings, crazy...right? Heh, heh.....heh....", as in she was humorously contemplating the idea of killing her own sibling, and she later reveals she's promised to help Katagawa kill the rest of his siblings.

She remarks "I'm gonna be a GOD" several times, with Troy having to correct her "Don't you mean WE?" to which she just shrugs and says "Yeeeaaah sure," and when Troy dies Tyreen has zero mention or remorse for it, instead immediately continuing her plans and even using his death to mock their father. She does smirk and say "You did it...now let's finish this together," but this seemed more sarcastic given she drains his powers and energy afterwards and reduces him to dust, like "together" but in a mocking way since she's just taking what's left of his energy.

Tyreen is far worse than Troy, which is where my issue is. Troy does come up with the idea to crash Pandora's moon into the planet, but Tyreen fully endorses the plan, meaning the only unique crime Troy has is draining Tyreen against her will, but even then he's remarking "It's almost done, hang on just a little longer, don't you DARE quit on me!" as if having no intention to actually murder her, and his last words are "Ty.....WE were...so close...." implying that he was at no point planning on killing her.

Tyreen then goes on to do far worse than Troy, and though yes it's because Troy is dead by that point.....I don't knowif that could work in Troy's favor or not.

Either way, absolutely still believe Tyreen counts.

Was Arkham!Firefly brought up as well?

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Oct 11th 2019 at 7:24:37 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#186820: Oct 11th 2019 at 7:01:24 PM

Yeah, Fried Warthog brought him up. I forgot where that discussion began though.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#186822: Oct 11th 2019 at 7:02:01 PM

Cementing my yes to Tyreen, then.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#186824: Oct 11th 2019 at 7:10:06 PM

I think Tyreen's fine; her entry does mention Troy about the moon thing, which I think is fine.

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#186825: Oct 11th 2019 at 7:11:42 PM

Thank you guys for the links to the discussions.

On Firefly, I see the concerns, but I also don't believe he is outheinoused. Firefly has some of the least resources in the Arkhamverse, but threatens hundreds of lives on the Pioneer bridge—including his own hired guns—tries to murder over q dozen of firefighters before letting them be tortured to death, and outright brags his plans to burn all of Gotham down, starting with its fire stations.

Calendar Man is his main competition, I'd agree, but Firefly is shown to be giving it his all in resources, as he surpasses every villain in attempted bodycount in Origins except Joker himself (which is saying a lot since most villains had more resources), and using the likes of Pyg and Croc don't work because they don't have too many victims. Firefly is threatening to burn down all of Gotham in Knight and the thousands of people inside it, and though Batman stops him before he gets too far, he's still fully intent on burning countless people down to the ground.

I think that given his ultimate goal is a setting Gotham aflame plus his status as nothing but a side villain in both games (even Calendar Man was an Arc Villain in the comics), I think Firefly has a unique enough rapsheet to count.

Oh, and Katagawa Jr. doesn't count. He's not heinous enough at all, his worst crime is starting a war on Atlas and getting many people killed, which villains do pretty routinely in the franchise, and none of his siblings' murders are onscreen.

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Oct 11th 2019 at 7:14:11 AM


Total posts: 326,048
Top