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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#182851: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:28:36 PM

[up] Oh great the film has another name? [lol][lol][lol]

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 13th 2019 at 11:28:44 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#182852: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:29:33 PM

[up] That's not exactly uncommon for cheesy movies

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#182853: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:29:55 PM

[up][up] Sorry dude, but great EP as always.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Sep 13th 2019 at 7:31:06 AM

It's Spooky Month!
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#182854: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:31:11 PM

[up] No worries, man. Happy to see that he counts.

[down] He's already approved, Prawn. But hey, thanks for the upvote [lol]

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 13th 2019 at 11:40:49 AM

TheAlmightyKingPrawn Darkwing Goose from Surrounding the mind of A Self Called Nowhere Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Darkwing Goose
#182855: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:39:00 PM

[tup] Vlasov

SP00PY month!
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#182856: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:43:18 PM

Question: How are candidates from Tabletop Games (eg. Dungeons & Dragons) and online roleplays picked? like are there official stories? rule books? what?

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#182858: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:49:34 PM

[up]Thank you. I've never really had experience with those and was confused on how it worked.

Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#182859: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:09:12 PM

So...I may have found a contender for 'most obscure complete monster who's also from a psychedelic drug trip of a story that was somehow officially published using a licensed character'.

I legit have to give a "Not Making This Up" Disclaimer that this isn't a bad, acid trip of a fanfic idea and thus can actually be considered...Oh boy.

If nothing else, we might get a laugh out of this.

What is the work?

A Space Godzilla, a short story published in 1978 in the Starlog Magazine in Japan. Despite many dismissing it as a bad fanfic, it was in fact published with Toho's full cooperation and conceived by Toho employees...and written by the guy who created Akira. It originated as a Lost Project considered for an actual Godzilla film...somehow.

Therefore this is an officially licensed Toho created work...only in Japan.

The story begins with Godzilla washing ashore, near death...from diabetes (yes, really), at which point it turns out Godzilla is actually an alien named Rozan from Planet Godzilla who is pregnent and must return, prompting the Earthlings to launch her back into space to return home in a psychedelic space adventure. Upon arrival it is discovered Planet Godzilla has been taken over by a species called the Sunerians and their kaiju general Gamoni.

Who is General Gamoni?

General Gamoni is The Dragon to the Sunerian Queen and the story's primary kaiju antagonist...and so bizarre that the fact she shoots fire from her breasts is the least insane thing about her. A brutal and sadistic, but completely sapient beast, she assisted in the genocide of the Godzilla species.

What does she do?

Gamoni assisted the Sunerians in their invasion of Planet Godzilla, who are a peaceful, pacifistic race (...yes, you heard that right, apparently there have been no violant Godzillas in 50 billion years). They then proceeded to commit genocide, leaving only 10,000 of the species left alive before sending a fake return home beacon to draw the survivors back to the planet to be slaughtered. Like all of the Sunerians, Gamoni tortures the enslaved Sphinx species as a pass time. The only reason given for this is they hate them for being so peaceful.

When Rozan returns to the planet and gives birth, her child Ririn is captured and Gamoni proceeds to ruthlessly torture him to the point of near death so she and the Sunerians can use his telepathic connection to an Earth girl named Momo to send a virus that will make humanity go insane and murder one another. This includes ruthlessly beating him with a whip and forcing two of the normally peaceful Sphinxes to maul him until he's half dead.

When Rozan senses this and comes to rescue him, Gamoni leads their forces in ruthlessly blasting her until she's reduced to ashes while laughing like a maniac...yes, this thing kills Godzilla.

The remaining 10,000 Godzillas have enough and unite to attack the Sunerians and end their threat, with Gamoni entering the fray and beginning to murder them left and right.

This continues until Kuunin, Rozan's mate, and Ririn confront and fight her in a long battle until Gamoni uses her extending snake-like neck to try and slowly crush Kuunin to death until she's distracted by...sigh, Momo's shoes she gave to Rozan when she departed channeling the power of her prayer to emit a melody of her lullaby to Ririn, allowing Kunnin to rip her head off and throw it into a sea of sulfuric acid, finally killing her.

Mitigating Factors?

Other than the acid trip of a story she's in, Gamoni has none. She's a sadistic psychopath who enjoys suffering and pain. She does have a personality, a poorly written one, but she does have one.

She is completely sapient and capable of speech.

Heinous Standard?

Story originally would've been part of the Showa Era, but thankfully the story is a stand alone with no other kaiju.

Her only real competition is the Sunerian Queen, but she's never shown ordering Gamoni around and flees the battle leaving Gamoni to act on her own agency.

She brutally tortures a NEWBORN CHILD nearly to death and only doesn't kill him because she needs him alive, helped commit planetary genocide on an innocent species, and brutally kills Rozan while laughing like it's the most fun she's had in forever. So she more than counts.

Verdict?

The only reason I could see to not thumbs her up is what an insane acid trip of a story this is, but the story takes itself seriously and was an officially published work, so I don't see that factoring in.

Now I need to rest because I think my brain's melting from reading this thing again...

Edited by Godzillawolf on Sep 13th 2019 at 8:12:11 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#182860: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:12:07 PM

[up] And people say Godzilla vs. Hedorah is bizarre...

[tup] to Gamoni (sounds like some kind of Italian sausage)

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Sep 13th 2019 at 8:29:05 AM

Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#182861: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:15:11 PM

[up]And note: this is the ABRIDGED version.

This is only about 1/10th of the utter insanity that is A Space Godzilla.

TheAlmightyKingPrawn Darkwing Goose from Surrounding the mind of A Self Called Nowhere Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Darkwing Goose
#182863: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:34:08 PM

[tup] Gamoni. If this story isn't listed on Widget Series yet...

Edited by TheAlmightyKingPrawn on Sep 13th 2019 at 11:34:58 AM

SP00PY month!
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#182864: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:34:22 PM

[tup] Gamoni. I got weird Brazillian Mega Man Comic vibes from this EP.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Sep 13th 2019 at 8:34:36 AM

It's Spooky Month!
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#182865: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:36:10 PM

[tup]What in the flippity-flappity FUCK was that???????

Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#182866: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:41:37 PM

Oh, you guys haven't seen nothing yet. This thing is like a acid trip while drunk, high, and on laughing gas while visiting an Evangalion Art Gallery.

Me and my friends like to call this, Bride of Godzilla, and Gods Godzilla 'the unholy trinity of insane unmade Godzilla films'.

Edited by Godzillawolf on Sep 13th 2019 at 8:42:05 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#182867: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:45:05 PM

Sure to Gamoni. Man, I really hope I got a keeper from Godzilla franchise tbh but oh well.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#182868: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:45:47 PM

Yay to Gamoni.

RIP KissAnime.
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#182869: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:47:44 PM

[tup] Gamoni, [tup] Vlasov, and with that done....

DISCLAIMER: There is quite a lot to dissect here, so this will be long and should be read over very carefully. Also, the exact ending of this character's arc has not yet been seen, so I'm only going by the barest outline of his final actions based on deduction of what said actions will be.

So, I'm sure all of us on this thread know the legend of Ghetsis Harmonia Gropius at this point. In the games he originated, Ghetsis' worst crimes we saw him commit on-screen were the effects of the twisted and abusive way in which he raised his son, verbally terrorizing and demeaning said son when he'd failed to meet his expectations, making a threat to kill the Player Character, freezing a city and attempt to freeze over the entire region in order to ransom control of it, having a Legendary Pokemon tortured in a machine in order to draw out it's power for a Freeze Ray, and ordering that Legendary Pokemon he was controlling to directly attack the Player Character and freeze them solid with a damaging attack move. which may or may not be classified as an attempted homicide of a minor. His even viler acts, however, were all done off-screen and pretty reliant upon Fridge Horror, so we were left with a unrepentently nasty villain with no redeeming qualities who definitely went over the Moral Event Horizon, but not to the extent where he could be classified as the worst that the game series had to offer, especially when the Big Bad in the generation prior had attempted omnicide of the entire universe in an attempt to unmake and then remake reality purged of spirit with him as God of the new reality, and the Big Bad in the generation after attempted genocide of most of the human and Pokemon population of the entire planet so that the environment could stay beautiful and there'd be less waste and conflict in the world. Ghetsis was overall an exceptionally vile above average Classic Villain rather than an outstanding, beyond-the-pail heinous monster.

His manga incarnation, however, is given new crimes to his name. and the crimes that are the same as those he committed in the games are covered in more detail and are allowed to have more explicit effects rather than implicit. Keep in mind that this manga has as high a heinous standard as the games themselves, if not higher since it's a lot more violent, yet Ghetsis still stands out as an exceptionally despicable piece of work. Does he stand out enough to qualify as this trope? That's what we're here to determine!

Who is Ghetsis Harmonia Gropius? What has he done? - Ghetsis is the Big Bad of the Black and White and Black 2 and White 2 Chapters of Pokémon Adventures, and true leader of Team Plasma, an organization that claims to be out to liberate Pokemon from the captivity and exploitation of their human trainers, though Ghetsis actually built the team for a darker objective. Anyone who has played the Gen V games or heard all about their plots will know much about Ghetsis and Team Plasma already, so I'll be focusing mainly on what sets this incarnation of Ghetsis apart from his original game counterpart.

As in the games, we first see Ghetsis in Accumula Town giving a Rousing Speech about the rights of Pokemon to be free from trainers to a crowd that has gathered to hear him speak. He has a kindly disposition and seems to bear the people no ill will despite most of them being trainers - he just seems to care a lot about the Pokemon and implores the trainers to consider setting them free from their Poke' balls, which many of them do after his speech is done and he departs along with his followers. We later see him talking with his six sages about their "king" who's begun his journey, and a flashback shows us how he crowned N the young king of Team Plasma who is to become the Black Hero to bond with the legendary Pokemon Zekrom and to spearhead their ultimate mission when the time comes. It takes a while until we see him again, though the Shadow Triad, who are carrying out illegal operations throughout the arc, mention that they serve him. Under his orders, the Shadow Triad captured the three legendary Weather Pokemon to be used as test subjects, and later pursue the four Swords Of Justice Pokemon and petrify three of them using their Genesect's power - only the young Keldeo manages to escape while the other three frozen Pokemon are sent falling into the sea below, presumably to their deaths. When Ghetsis himself re-enters the picture at Dragonspiral Tower, he has a cruel Kick the Dog moment where he has his Eelectross electrocute Black from behind so that he can take the Dark Stone, and cheerfully leaves Black there, not caring if he lives through the shock or not. He proceeds to watch over N in his quest to tame Zekrom and become the Black Hero (though this requires N to take some physical damage from a defiant Zekrom). Since Ghetsis is the creator and mastermind of Team Plasma, all crimes committed by them (all the grunts, N, Zinzolin, the Shadow Triad, the Hoodman, etc.) throughout the arc can be linked directly to him. But for the most part, these crimes and his own personal crimes are your fairly typical evil bad guy stuff.

Then we get to the climactic chapters at the Unova League Temple - Brycen, the Iccirus City Gym Leader, has made it underground into N's castle thanks to Looker and White's investigation. The sages appear before him and this prompts Brycen to command an attack from his Pokemon only to see Gym Leader Lenora's husband, Hawes, thrust in front of the attack as a human shield and a hostage. We see that the poor, fearful man caught in the grip of Ghetsis' Hydregion. Ghetsis himself, riding atop Hydregion's back, pleasantly welcomes Brycen to Team Plasma's castle as means of taunting him. Then as the castle rises from under the ground, envelopes the League and drills a bunch of drawbridges into the Temple, all under Ghetsis' command, we see that this action actually endangers innocent people, including a small child whose life Drayden has to save. Iris says that people have to be evacuated because of this danger. The sages then come out, led by Ghetsis, who has Hydregion drop Hawes onto the ground - Hawes cries that because he was being held hostage and used as a shield, Brycen was made to surrender to Ghetsis. Ghetsis states that in addition to making their ideals known, it's required for Team Plasma's plan to show the masses of Unova how overwhelmingly strong Team Plasma is and how worthless their revered Gym Leaders, the official representatives of their cities, are in comparison. He asks for Black to please "gaze upon their despicable forms!", and we see that 6 Gym Leaders have been severely beaten down and tied to crucifixes. (The beatings and tortures he had them put through occurred offscreen, but here is the result for all to see and it sure ain't pretty.) Ghetsis asks Black if he's feeling doubts - "will you go and fight the king, or will you stay and save the Gym Leaders?" Then he raises his hand and adds "However, between those two options, you can pick neither." and has Hydregion knock out the Pokemon that Black had out at the time wth one swift attack, subverting a Sadistic Choice by giving Black no choice at all.. He taunts Black saying that he nor no one present can resist Team Plasma's power now, and he strongly implies he's about to have Hydregion attack Black directly to kill him on the spot. Just then a bunch of regular trainers come to the rescue, determined to fight Team Plasma, save the Gym Leaders, and protect every human and Pokemon. Ghetsis tells the Sages that humans are foolish creatures in need of enlightenment, and that's why "we must eliminate those who would dissuade them", giving a glance at all the trainers, suggesting that all of them must be killed in order to make further examples. The Sages are thus prepared to commit a massacre of other human beings on Ghetsis' behest. The Gym Leaders are eventually broken free, but by that time, Ghetsis has turned and walked off into the castle.

When White is talking to Anthea and Concordia in N's room, we learn that Ghetsis found N living with Pokemon in the woods when N was still a very young child, and since then he'd had him raised in solitary confinement, with N being so isolated from the world that he seldom if ever left this one room and never saw beyond the castle - at least a full decade of living like this, never getting to know the outside world. Ghetsis had warped and molded N's character to match the qualifications for The Hero or The Messiah - he deliberately had him brought up alongside Pokemon that had been abused by humans so that he'd come to believe humans represented a danger to Pokemon and resent them for it, conditioned his mind with a false view of reality in which all Pokemon suffer at the hands of humans and are in need of liberation so that N would sincerely believe that he needed to change this reality for the sake of all his Pokemon friends, and had N's room filled with toys and regularly sent castle servants, including Anthea and Concordia (his surrogate sisters), to tend to the boy and provide him education but also ensure that he kept a childlike innocence to him that he'd carry with him into young adulthood when he was coronated Team Plasma's king and sent on a journey to change the world with his ideals. N was essentially brainwashed since childhood into becoming a puppet ruler that Ghetsis could use for carrying out his plans. White finds this to be heartbreaking, even to the point of crying tears of sympathy for N's ordeal.

After N and Zekrom have been defeated by Black and Reshiram (and N has fallen unconscious from exhaustion), Ghetsis enters the room where Black and N landed, remarking about how unworthy his son is of sharing the name Harmonia with him. He introduces himself as Ghetsis Harmonia Gropius, confirming that he is N's father and that he spurred N into following his ideals all for the purpose of gaining more power for his Team Plasma. He explains his motivations and plans to Black, and unlike in the game, he is not angry in the slightest bit - he's calm and grinning serenely as he lays out all the info. The crux of the plan depended on Team Plasma showing overwhelming power over all people of authority in Unova such as the Champion, Gym Leaders, and Elite Four, as well as N and Zekrom defeating the hero of truth and Reshiram in battle. N lost his battle instead but Ghetsis insists that his plans have not been disrupted by this momentary setback - if he were to wipe away all the inconvenient facts, his goal can still be achieved. Black asks what he means and Ghetsis rather nonchalantly replies "That I must eliminate you, of course!" and he orders Hydregion to ignite a fire all around Black in order to "burn him to ashes!" Black refuses to die without a fight so he sends out his Pokemon team, who start immediately getting pummeled by Ghetsis' own team. Black senses something is wrong and then sees that Ghetsis' Pokemon all have type advantages against his - the lineup of Ghetsis' team seems tailor made for taking down Black's team, and they're all surrounded by flames so that the match-ups Ghetsis wanted to happen can happen and they're separated from a defenseless Black. Ghetsis states that since Black had been such a thorn in his teams's side, he researched his team and prepared for this battle accordingly. He also says that once all of Black's Pokemon are KO'ed, the flames will wipe out Black and his Pokemon, burning them alive and killing them in order to silence the truth of N's defeat. He explains that his plan would be undermined were word to get out that N lost to Black, but fortunately the only witnesses to that were Black, N, and Ghetsis inside the castle, so Ghetsis figures he can just kill Black and his Pokemon, then lie to the public about N having emerged the victor of that battle. People would then revere N as the true hero, want to aspire to live like he does in regards to Pokemon, and listen to whatever command he gave, including an order to release their Pokemon. It would further propel the act of Pokemon liberation and anyone who still refused would simply be crushed by Team Plasma's immense power. In the end, Ghetsis and his select Team Plasma cohorts would be the only ones left with Pokemon that they could use to suppress and reign over the powerless populace of the world - that is the ideal world Ghetsis sought to create all along. Black notes how different that is from N's ideal and asks if N even knew about it, to which Ghetsis replies by giving his biggest, douchiest grin yet and saying "Of course not! He's merely my plan's, ah....decorative ornament." This gets Black to scream "GHETSIS!" in rage and internally refer to him as a "scumbag" that he needs to bring down or else all of Unova and beyond will become Ghetsis' puppets just like N was.

Eventually Black wins the battle by attacking the sun, which turns out to be Volcarona and it was keeping the flames alive. With the flames gone, Black has his Pokemon go all out against Ghetsis', resulting in Ghetsis' defeat. Does Ghetsis get his Villainous Breakdown here? Nope - he merely expresses disappointment in Volcarona's loss, explains where it came from, and turns to leave like nothing even happened. He's willing to leave his still unconscious son and all his KO'd Pokemon behind too. Black traps him in a stone edge attack and it looks like that's the end of him, but it's not. As Reshiram is reverting back to it's natural Light Stone state later on after Zekrom has flown away with N, Ghetsis expresses amusement at the idea of Black getting pulled in along with Reshiram and sealed inside the stone. He proceeds to make that very thing happen by using a Beheeyem that his associate Colress lent him, while revealing that he escaped his stone prison. He mocks Black by saying that he hopes to never see his face again before teleporting away. And Black, after saying goodbye to White, does indeed get sealed into the Light Stone aong with Reshiram and all of his Pokemon, bringing his and White's story in this arc to a Downer Ending. Why did Ghetsis do this? For the Evulz - needless sadism and spite, nothing more. We last see him communicating with Colress on a phone device and it's revealed that Ghetsis has always had Colress use his Beheeyem's power to take control of people's minds whenever he had to make speeches about Pokemon liberation. Those people were forcibly made to release their Pokemon, so spectators who saw that were made to think that they did it in response to Ghetsis' words, so it got them considering releasing their Pokemon as well, thus accelerating the process. It seems Ghetsis is hell-bent on exploiting people, Pokemon, and the ways of society in this world even if he has to outright violate the minds of others' in order to do so. And while it's not stated outright, it's heavily, heavily, HEAVILY suggested that Ghetsis has used this trick on N's mind as well. N at one point in the arc speaks of hearing voices of Pokemon who are suffering at the hands of humans in his head "everywhere he's gone", but Black says this contrasts with what he's seen of the majority of Pokemon relationships with trainers. The even more damning clue is in N's eyes - the way his eyes are drawn for all of the arc is dark, dulled, and with no visible eye pupils, matching someone whose mind is at least partially under a sort of hypnosis. But in the arc's very last chapter, when N comes to and departs on Zekrom, we're shown a large panel image of how N looks like now that he can see things more clearly than he had when he was Ghetsis' Unwitting Pawn, his eyes now being brighter shaded and with pupils. The artwork tells us that in this version of the story, N was at least partially under a brainwashing influence, and his own father was quite deliberately responsible for that.

In the pilot chapter for the sequel arc, which takes place a few years prior, we see Ghetsis giving orders to operatives of a newly formed Team Plasma to go steal Pokemon from trainers, and this leads to Hugh's little sister losing her newly received Purrloin to those thieves, earning Hugh's relentless hatred of Team Plasma. In the arc proper, we see Ghetsis is leading the new Team Plasma from behind the scenes as they set off to "wage war on the Unova region." We see him in person when he appears on the deck of the Plasma Frigate before Blake in Driftveil City, taking both former Plasma Sage Zinzolin and the legendary Pokemon Kyurem as prisoners, recalling Colress (Team Plasma's new figurehead boss replacing N) to the Plasma Frigate, and after re-iterating that he dreams of reigning supreme over all, siccing the Shadow Triad on Blake before the Frigate takes off. The Triad still has the three legendary Weather Pokemon that they'd captured in the previous arc, and now they have control over their Therian Forms thanks to Colress possessing the Reveal Glass.

Meanwhile, Ghetsis orders Colress and his crew to fly the Frigate to Castelia City. Kyurem has been placed inside Colress' machine and the energy that fuels it's Ice powers gets amplified, the machine extracting that power into the Frigate's secret weapon, the Kyurem Cannon. To test both Kyurem and the canon's capabilities, Colress opens fire onto Castelia City. Hugh and Whitley are currently in a crowd of spectators on the docks as the Frigate draws near. When the cannon is fired, Hugh and Whitley duck for cover as the icy blast hits the front part of the city and all the onlookers head on. The result is that not only are many skycrapers frozen solid (as Blake puts it, "a freezing weapon that can freeze skyscrapers in an instant"), but we see all the previously unfrozen civillians now frozen so solid with ice and slush all over them that they resemble creepy, lifeless snowpeople rather than living, breathing human beings. The Frigate flies around the city, blasting more of it with the cannon and freezing more populated areas. When Plasma Sage Rood arrives on the scene to help evacuate people and Whitley insists that she can't leave all her classmates behind in such a dangerous place, it's made very clear that the effects of the freezing are damaging and potentially fatal rather than Harmless Freezing. Furthermore, Ghetsis spots Rood's presence in the city on his monitor screen and informs Colress, and when Colress asks if he should be frozen, Ghetsis states that it'd be better to capture him alive since if they were to freeze him, he could never tell them why he appeared in the city and what sort of resistence he was planning with the other ex-Plasma members. Colress states "There might be an unexpected ambush if we let him live", again explicitly saying that freezing = death.

Following this, Team Plasma goes on to repeat this freezing proccess to at least five more towns - Striaton City, Nacrene City, Mistralton City, and Opelucid City, with Lacunosa Town being the latest to fall to the cannon's effects as they head towards Undella Town to freeze it too and then will converge at Humilau City, freeze it, and prepare for the final phase of their operation. Not only are we told that this is happening by other characters and via a news report (which chillingly breaks up and goes silent as the cannon blasts Lentimas Town), but we are shown panels of the frozen towns, with all areas blanketed by ice and snow. Ghetsis' ultimate goal is now raise Kyurem's power to it's maximum so that it can let out power to freeze the entire continent of the Unova region. When the suffering becomes to great for the people of Unova, Ghetsis can ransom total control of Unova from it's leaders (or, should said leaders be dead, swoop in and take over unopposed) and rule with an iron fist, and from there he can seek to take the rest of the world with Kyurem still at his side. Kyurem, of course, is committing none of these terrorist acts of it's own free will - Ghetsis is enslaving it's mind and body with a special cane that's embedded with Colress' Mind Control technology in order to force compliance with him and make it's power serve his plans for total domination.

In the penultimate showdown, Ghetsis mounts Kyurem to go fight N and Zekrom, telling Colress beforehand that he feels no conflict over having to possibly kill his own foster son, as he never felt anything for N resembling parental love since the day he adopted him. He proves this when, upon attaining the DNA Splicers, has Kyurem attack Zekrom in order to revert it back to the Dark Stone state, which, like with Black and the Light Stone, seals N inside the stone. Kyurem is then fused wth Zekrom to become Black Kyurem, with N's spirit to be a Living Battery along with Zekrom. At Colress' urging, Ghetsis does not hesitate to unleash Black Kyurem's power upon Humilau City, freezing it all solid with a Freeze Shock. Fortunately, N escapes the dreamscape when Black does, but he lands on Kyurem at his father's feet. After Colress points out that they should get N out of the picture somehow because he could hear Zekrom's voice and be able to reach it from within Black Kyurem, Ghetsis, with a killer Psychotic Smirk, tells N that he's so worthless, he can't even be of good use to him as a shield. N says "Father..." and then Ghetsis foists his cane upward and strikes N, knocking him off of Kyurem, down from the sky and to his potential death. We later learn that Colress recovered him alive and took him as a prisoner on board the Frigate 'cause he'd deemed N more valuable alive.

Ghetsis then flies Black Kyurem over the Giant Chasm and beckons Kyurem to raise it's power in order to freeze all of Unova. When Black, White, Blake, and Whitley (with Reshiram and the Swords of Justice) all pursue him and fight back against his intentions, Ghetsis attempts to have all four kids slaughtered by Black Kyurem's power. Even when Kyurem is freed of it's fusion with Zekrom and fuses with Reshiram instead to fight against Ghetsis, Ghetsis refuses to yield and goes down in a mad homicidal rage against all the young trainers who oppose him, unrepentant to the very end.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story? - This is probably the trickiest case.

First off, many of the additional crimes given to him here seem to be rooted in violence against other human beings through use of Pokemon's power and abilities, and this really shouldn't be a mark for him qualifying since Pokemon violence towards humans is absolutely commonplace in this manga. However, there's something extra unsettling about Ghetsis' particular use of it. In other cases of antagonists using their Pokemon to hurt or attempt to kill the protagonists in this manga, there's always been this intensity to it - the villains are feeling intense and driven and really in the moment as they make their attempts on others' lives in order to wipe out whatever and whoever stands in their way and is inconveniencing their plans at the moment. With Ghetsis, it's all done with a sort of casual air to it, like the guy is just all too used to doing this sort of thing on a regular basis and feels absolutely nothing of it - it's just all in a day's work for him. He'll violate human minds, electrocute a kid into a painful paralysis, hold an innocent man hostage and use him as a Human Shield, beat down and torture Gym Leaders, attempt to have a kid and all his Pokemon friends incinerated and then knock them into a stone that sucks them inside of it, and attempt to turn his enemies into still living Frozen Corpses all with nonchalant casualness and a pleasant smile on his face. His Dog Kicking is consistent and habitual to him. Probably the most blatant case of this is him hitting his son with his cane to send him to his near death, as that one is NOT even done with a Pokemon, it's just a blunt act of violence committed with a sick grin on his face. While there might have been worse violent acts committed in this manga, the cruelty behind the deeds reaching this level of sadism is pretty unparalleled. He's something of a Torture Technician, relishing all the ways he can cause pain simply because he enjoys watching the suffering of others.

Second of all, there's his goals. Lance wanted to Kill All Humans on his home continent (yeah, he talked like he just flat out wanted to wipe out humanity as a species all over the world, but that became subject to a HUGE Continuity Drift when the Pokemon world got way bigger than just that one continent he was specifically shown to be targetting), Pryce was willing to risk damaging the entire planet via a Time Crash just so he could go back in time and save his Lapras' parents, Archie and Maxie set off an apocalypse in their home region and Archie later attempted to flood the world completely in order to take it all over, Cyrus was an Omnicidal Maniac who wanted to destroy the universe and reality itself so that he could recreate it all in his "pure" image devoid of spirit, and Lysandre wanted to commit mass genocide against humans and Pokemon of the Kalos region, being responsible for an out of control Pokemon attack on a populated town with many casualties and further acts of terrorism and attempted homicide. Ghetsis....wants to Take Over the World (OF COURSE!). On the surface, this doesn't appear to be as grandiose and heinous as the objectives of other villains - it's actually quite standard and petty. But keep in mind that we've voted up villains in this franchise like Ardos, Grings Kodai, Chancellor Alva, IO, DPA!Charon, even fanfic versions of Ardos and Ghetsis himself, who all qualify because they manage to stand out relative to other villains by committing some of the worst, darkest, most violent and personally effecting atrocities with all the resources they have at their disposal to work with on a marginally large scale in the names of goals so petty and not worth such lengths, all driven by matters of power lust, ego, and greed. Ghetsis in this manga is a similar case.

While all of the other Big Bads I mentioned were motivated by varying degrees of Well Intentioned Extremism (Lance wanted humans eliminated so that Pokemon would be safer and live better, Pryce just wanted his Lapras and it's parents reunited, Arche and Maxie started off with pure intentions before being Brainwashed and Crazy and then driven to total Sanity Slippage by the orbs, Cyrus wanted to remove impure, incomplete spirit in the hearts of living beings from reality so that all living beings could function better and stop making strife in the world, and even Lysandre wanted to preserve resources and keep his home region beautiful), Ghetsis, by contrast, is a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist who's not operating within the same playing field as those other villains listed, has a significant amount of resources at his disposal to work with but none of which are geared towards omnicide, genocide, or planetary and/or cosmic scale destruction because that's just not what he's shooting for - he wants to conquer his region, then conquer the rest of the world, and enslave all humans and Pokemon who don't belong to him and his Team Plasma regime - and he is as bad as he possibly could be with those resources all to work towards the realization of a goal driven by narcissism, entitlement, greed, and a megalomanic desire for power to dominate as much of his fellow living beings with as possible.

Also, kiss Fridge Horror goodbye - the explicit purpose for separating all trainers from their Pokemon is so they'd be left powerless to ever rise against Team Plasma's conquest of their homes and ultimate conquest of the entire world, and then once Ghetsis rules the world, his new world order would ban having Pokemon for all not closely associated with him or are in his Team Plasma regime. It does align with what Ghetsis said in the game about what he'd hoped to achieve to the player at Tubeline Bridge: "Having Pokemon will be considered a bad thing!" A pretty cruel endgame, and the particularly nasty means of reaching it just makes Ghetsis and his schemes that much worse. Above else, Ghetsis is extra exploitative. Exploitative of human nature, Pokemon nature, and the nature of the series' setting and system with all of it's rules, customs, and ways of life, and he's more than willing to play that system to his best advantage so that he can reap benefits at the expense of almost everyone else, even his own son.

And of course there's the matter of his vilest, most standout personal crimes. He ties Gym Leaders to crosses after having beaten them badly with his Pokemon, and then orders the trainers who stand against him to be massacred. After trying and failing to burn the Kid Hero and his Pokemon alive, he gives them an And I Must Scream Fate Worse than Death out of petty spite and amusement, and he later attempts this same thing to his own son before almost killing him without a single trace of regret or remorse for having to do so. And rather than attacking Opelucid City with the Kyurem Cannon like in the games, he first has Team Plasma attack Castelia City, the largest city in the Unova region with the largest population. By freezing the city over with power that's said to be far from harmless, Ghetsis attempts a body count in the high millions, and then the subsequent freezing of more towns racks it up to at least over a billion. And with the end goal being to freeze the entire region so that he can gain the power to rule it utterly, he's basically pulling an Ice variant of Phoenix King Ozai.

Does he have any redeeming qualities? - As in the games, all of his seemingly good qualities are a total fabrication. He's in truth an aspiring dictator, an emotionally and psychologically abusive father, a sadistic torture specialist, a mass exploiter, and a cruel, prideful, ambitious, manipulative, self-centered, power-hungry, narcissistic sociopath to his very core, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He's unashamed of what he is, too - he's displays not one iota of remorse for the things he's done and continues to do. The manga manages to make him come off as more repugnant because he's depicted as being far more Faux Affably Evil than the original character - more of a calm, calculated, sophisticated mastermind who closer ressembles a realistic sociopath. The artwork gives him the warmest, kindest, most fatherly looking facial expressions even while he's saying and doing horrible things. This guy could easily be your pastor, teacher, or councilor, and he's secretly hell bent on achieving global domination and making others suffer in his rise to power!

I suppose the two possible marks against him could be in his relationships with the Shadow Triad and Colress. The Shadow Triad have Undying Loyalty to Ghetsis. That's their entire characterization. However we are not shown why that is but we are shown clearly that Ghetsis has no such loyalty and adoration for them, treating them merely as servants and tools, just as he does his son and the rest of Team Plasma. As for Colress, he and Ghetsis are at first quite formal and polite towards each other in their conversations, referring to one another as good business partners and Colress expresses that he very much looks forward to working for Ghetsis on future projects at the end of the BW chapter. This could almost be seen as Villainous Friendship, except that 1: Ghetsis is immoral while Colress is amoral, so of course they take pleasure in their shared work, and 2: as in all continuities, Colress actually despies Ghetsis, as he is only working for him because he feels it's convenient for his research, providing him opportunities for experiments that get results Colress is looking for. In this manga, a point is made to have Colress continuously refer to Ghetsis as his "partner" or "friend" as if in reassurance, and the cheeriness of their conversations always feels fake, with Colress gradually expressing clear exasperation over Ghetsis calling in to give him orders and, in Colress' own words, treating him as though he were Ghetsis' own private property. When Colress walks out on the "partnership" and allows the good guys to beat Ghetsis, he exposes how little he actually cares for the guy, and Ghetsis was never that fond of him either- he only liked how useful Colress' scientific genius was to his own ends.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors? - He has no excuse, he just really feels entitled to gaining power and holding the highest privilege over all others. Nothing mitigates his villainy - everything about his depiction only serves to punctuate what a vile bastard he is.

Other considerations? - A big thing in regards to how he views and treats N, his own son. As I mentioned earlier, he very shamelessly admits that his son is an ignorant pawn in his plans and refers to him as the plans' "decorative ornament". Unlike in the games, he never calls N "a freak without a human heart" here - he calls him that instead. In the games, Ghetsis referred to N as though he were an inhuman creature. Here, he refers to his son as though he were an object - a nonliving thing that exists solely for his use, and that he'd have no compunction discarding once his full use to him has been served. This isn't just cruelty in regards to his child, this is flat out undermining his sapience as an individual. That's a new low even for this Father of the Year. He later clarifies, without a trace of emotion on his face, that he never felt anything for N since day one, and he thinks and feels absolutely nothing of having N used as a Living Battery for Black Kyurem along with Zekrom and then striking him down off Kyurem to his possible death once that doesn't pan out. Had Colress not decided N was more valuable alive and made a save, he likely would've died by his father's hand.

Lastly, remember how Lysandre and Team Flare were responsible for the destruction of an entire town at the start of the XY Chapter? Ghetsis and Team Plasma, in an arc taking place directly before that one, were responsible for devastating eight cities and towns, endangering billions of lives total, and their manner of doing so was even more direct than Team Flare setting up Xerneas and Yveltal to fight, since Ghetsis and Colress had direct control over Kyurem and it's power, dictating when and where it would be unleashed.

Final Verdict? - Within the scale of his actions and with the resources he's got, Manga!Ghetsis passes the baseline of heinousness in ways similar to previous Pokemon qualifiers including the fanfiction version of Ghetsis that got voted up before. His evilness is played dead seriously, he lacks redeeming qualities or anything to mitigate his villainy, he's given no justification for his crimes, he's never anywhere close to redemption, he's the worst parent the franchise has ever seen, and while there have been more extreme villains than him in this manga series, none have been as shamelessly. unrelentingly vile, wantonly sadistic, and utterly self-interested as he is. I think he's a keeper. [tup]

Edited by ANewMan on Sep 13th 2019 at 8:48:46 AM

TheAlmightyKingPrawn Darkwing Goose from Surrounding the mind of A Self Called Nowhere Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Darkwing Goose
#182870: Sep 13th 2019 at 8:55:42 PM

[tup] Ghetsis

Edited by TheAlmightyKingPrawn on Sep 13th 2019 at 11:56:23 AM

SP00PY month!
AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
#182871: Sep 13th 2019 at 9:02:50 PM

[tup] Gamoni and Ghetsis.

And does DuckTales (2017) have a CM in General Lunaris?

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#182872: Sep 13th 2019 at 9:04:39 PM

[up] PM Scraggle about it.

[tup] to Ghestis

Things are really about to get Fun around here
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#182874: Sep 13th 2019 at 9:21:00 PM

[tup] Ghetsis Harmonia Gropius

FINALLY. THE PROMISED DAY HAS COME.

[tup] General Gamoni

Watch me destroying my country
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#182875: Sep 13th 2019 at 9:28:13 PM

[tup][tup][tup][tup] Easy yep to Ghetsis

Man, despite his video game version didn't qualify as he's just a Hate Sink, nothing more. Voting his manga version feels...Cathartic

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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