During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
It's only Word of God, and not represented in the actual comic, which doesn't mtter much for us, but doesn't necessitate a cut, IMO
Handsome Head of Hyperion
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Bombshells candidates, Zarkon and Newman's God
Now have a film candidate to discuss.
What's the work?
Beyond the Mask is a 2015 historical action film set in the 1700s, with Christian leanings in the messages.
The Protagonist is William Reynolds, a former mercenary and agent for the corrupt East India Company. Eventually growing tired of his crooked life, Reynolds tries to back out, only to find himself betrayed and left for dead. In response, Reynolds takes on a mask and becomes a vigilante called "the Highwayman," working to take down his former boss and monstrous businessman Charles Kemp.
Who is Charles Kemp? What has he done?
Charles Kemp (played by a very hammy John-Rhys Davies) is a British businessman and a guiding hand for the East India Company. Under his direction, the EIC committed a variety of atrocities in India, from slavery to murder.
When his protege, William Reynolds, tries to leave the EIC for a more peaceful life, Kemp tries to assassinate him with a bomb.
Later learning that Reynolds is dating his niece, Charlotte, Kemp again tries to assassinate Reynolds, painting him as a war criminal behind all of EIC's crimes in India.
Kemp orders his men to start creating havoc and chaos in the colonies of America, leading to his men murdering innocent people and setting houses aflame.
Meanwhile, Kemp tests out a new bomb created by his employee "the Doctor" by blowing up a variety of houses and killing many people.
As a fugitive Reynolds continues to interact with Charlotte secretly, Kemp gives his men the order to kill Charlotte if she's ever seen near Reynolds again, proclaiming that she's becoming an "annoyance."
Eventually, Kemp's big plan is uncovered by Reynolds. Kemp plans to use a variety of his electricity-powered devices and bombs to blow up the entire city of Philadelphia while the Declaration of Independence is being signed, hoping to throw the 13 colonies into chaos following this mass murder and destruction of any chance of the Declaration being signed, so that the East India Company can swoop in and bring the 13 colonies under British control.
When Kemp discovers that Charlotte has been aiding Reynolds in a variety of strikes against the British, Kemp brings Charlotte to his lair and brags his plans for Philadelphia. When a horrified Charlotte asks "How many people will die?", Kemp simply replies "Enough."
Kemp ties Charlotte up in his lair, revealing he's going to blow it up to eliminate evidence along with the city, and prepares to leave her there to die while Philadelphia is destroyed. Reynolds arrives at the last minute and kills Kemp's Dragon Basil, which Kemp shows zero concern for, and Kemp does while desperately trying to blow up Philadelphia, mocking and trying to kill Reynolds and Charlotte the whole time.
Does Charles Kemp have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
Kemp claims that he wants to bring "law and order" to the 13 colonies, but Charlotte rightly points out that it would be "his" law and order. And though he seems nice to Charlotte and dotes on her like a kind uncle, throughout the film he grows more and more annoyed and aggressive with her until remorselessly trying to kill her.
Is Kemp sufficiently heinous?
Absolutely, he has several murders on his hands throughout the film, and stirs up chaos and death throughout the colonies before trying to blow up hundreds of innocent people to thwart the Declaration of Independence from being signed.
Final Verdict?
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Sep 10th 2019 at 8:20:12 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Personally, I suspect Kevin's hatred of Roark Jr. has more to do with Holier Than Thou disdain than any kind of moral standards on his part, but that's just me. So I'm leaning towards cut.
What about the image?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
yea on Kemp
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I say we move the image, since my Bellatrix Lestrange pic was put in the Film folder. Maybe we can find another image for the comic.
Yes to God, Kemp, Bernard, Atalon, Zarkon, the Young Justice and Bombshell villains.
Yeah, I think Hordak being revealed as a sympathetic villain worked because we knew little about him and his tragic backstory was revealed at the right time, its a surprise given how he was written in the past, but it works because this was revealed in season 3, rather than the finale.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 10th 2019 at 8:47:05 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Kemp.
Also, a villain getting sudden redeeming qualities but it being done right? I gotta say my favorite example is Flowey the flower from undertale. If it weren't for the Pacifist ending he'd be a clear CM, But that ending pushes him a million miles from this.
I don't quite know what about it works...it's just the execution Is so good it works.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
to Kemp
Personally I never liked an irredeemable villain suddenly receiving last minute redeeming traits because it makes it sound half assed, compared to villains receiving redeeming qualities over time, but if I had to pick one it would be Jamie Moriarty from Elementary whom after begin set up as irredeemable in the 1st season get a redeeming quality caring for her daughter in season 2 namely because she's attractive.
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 10th 2019 at 6:04:40 AM
A Star Trek character I mentioned before is from the classic episode Duet, where Major Kira arrested a Cardassian file clerk named Aamin Marritza and finds he is really Gul Darhe'el, an infamous war criminal who ran a forced labor camp and boasts about his genocidal crimes through out the episode.
However that is ruse, Darhe'el is dead and Marritza is wrecked by guilt for doing nothing to stop Darhe'el and wants to be tried and executed to force the Cardassian government to acknowledge its crimes. You do not know this till the end of the episode, which makes it really powerful when Marritza's act breaks down and he breaks down in tears.
Darhe'el shows up in some of the novels, but I am not sure he stands out by Cardassian standards (Cardassian military officals are known for their cruelty). Fake Darhe'el had some good evil quotes though.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 10th 2019 at 9:15:46 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
Just saw It Chapter 2.
Yay to Kemp.
RIP KissAnime.
Now...as I've seen this one with Scraggle?
What's the work?
The Tough Ones is a 1976 Poliziotessco film. The Hero, Inspector Tanzi, is an Italian Dirty Harry in the warzone that is 70s Rome....now, he's out to solve crime and isn't concerned with suspect rights or any of that soft-headed silliness. So, there's a group of bank robbers out there also piling up bodies. And who should be the secret leadr? I give you Vincenzo Moretto
Who is Moretto?
A hunchback played by Tomas Milian who works in a meat-packing plant where he adopts a pathetic air, Moretto and Tanzi are enemies, probably because Tanzi tends to beat him up to interrogate him a lot, and frequently drops by, knowing Moretto is guilty but never able to prove it...in truth? Moretto is the secret leader of his gang, eliminating all who stand in his way, and orchestrating a series of bank robberies.
Besides this, Moretto is a mad dog killer, having people killed, cops, civilians and otherwise without a care. Things end up coming to a head by the end when he and his men take a bank hostage.,..when Tanzi is on the scene, Moretto tries to murder hostages, and leaves his gang behind to die, hijacking an ambulance and murdering a man there....the woman in the back, her husband, the driver? Moretto murders them, and callously fires into a crowd without care for casualties as he escapes. Tanzi and team hunt him down, where Moretto is still good to slaughter anyone in his path, even trying to murder the cops and torture/kill Tanzi by the end. However, even with the casualties, Tanzi gets free and goes after Moretto...ending in a very abrupt fashion as he pulls a gun and shoots Moretto dead.
Heinousness?
Highest bodycount and Moretto is a mad dog monster. Now, the film has some other nasties...there's Tony, a pimp who hooks a prostitute on heroin to control her, and Stefano- a rich little punk who leads a pack of rapists...neither, sadly do enough onscreen while Moretto is revealed to be a mass murdering psychotic.
Mitigating Qualities?
Nothing. Moretto acts pathetic (and Tanzi beats up on him at first)...only to reveal Tanzi is right and Moretto really is just that evil and crazy (I know, I know...) He lives near his sister, but only uses her as cover for things, not caring about her as a person at least.
Conclusion?
A basic keep, but akeep...and really one elevated because Tomas Milian is awesome, with this being his second CM....the first being Giulio Sacco from Almost Human.
Yes to Moretto, just squeezing in.
Anyways, another proposal from Bad Movie Night...
What's the setting?
The Breed is a 2001 film with Bokeem Woodbine as Steve Grave, a detective in a Gotham-pastiche near-future city who teams up with Adrian Paul—as a vampire. Vampires have recently come out to humanity and there are movements for peaceful unity, but also self-interested players on both sides who aren't interested in coexistence. Big Bad Cross doesn't count as he's kind of a WIE... but a character played in a memorable bit role by the late and great James Booth (who did Limehouse Willie in Pray for Death, and the monstrous British terrorist in American Ninja IV) we have Dr. Fleming.
Who is Fleming? What has he done?
Dr. Fleming is a human scientist who is allied with the humans seeking diplomacy with the vampires, led by the ostensibly noble Dr. Cross. Fleming has developed a virus that has horrible effects on vampires but only mild effects on humans, as a last ditch resort should the vampires not be willing to cooperate—to wipe them out completely.
Eeeexcept Fleming is a turncoat. Selling out his own species, Fleming allies with vampires for the chance never to "know disease, weakness, or pain again," serving as their Renfield. Fleming has secretly reconfigured the virus to turn against humanity—after a week of infection, the vampires recover, and the humans agonizingly die. Fleming has the virus fatally tested on numerous dead innocents seen in his laboratory, and when Steve realizes his betrayal, Fleming realizes he'll unleash the virus upon all humanity. Those who wish to survive convert to vampires; all others die, and Fleming doesn't care how many people die as a result of his virus so long as he becomes immortal. Fleming attempts to kill Steve, but he's out of ammo, and Cross himself comes to Fleming when Steve subdues him. Cross gifts Fleming his freedom from disease, weakness, and pain. By opening his throat with a scalpel.
Any mitigating factors?
Cross just misses himself because of how sincere his motivation is, and while there's a couple of nasty murders, the villains aren't really developed and are kind of scattershot. Fleming's in charge of the nastiest part of the operation with the least sympathetic motive among the villains—he manipulates all his supposed allies and is willing to see them all die all for his own gain, alongside God-knows how many people who defy Cross.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Edited by Scraggle on Sep 10th 2019 at 11:32:07 AM
Win for Fleming
I thought sharks were my friends.
Yay to both
RIP KissAnime.
Regarding the comment at the top of the page, it technically is possible for a CM to have disdain for other villains if the reasons themselves aren't moral. For instance, IIRC, John Dread from the Otherland novels hates pedophiles, but it's essentially because he considers them lazy.
Edited by nrjxll on Sep 10th 2019 at 12:34:10 PM
Goku Black
kemp, moretto and fleming
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Just going to propose the final music candidate for now and I'll handle my writeups after this. Anyways...
What's the Work
Alright, this is not a work. In fact, this is actually an obscure Youtube user named Boyonastring. He is noted for making fan music from the likes of Avatar series (Not the one with blue humanoids) and RWBY. Now, when you hear RWBY, you know what I'm talking about right? Yep, today, I'm going to propose another incarnation of an approved CM from the fan song that was made by Boyonastring called "Like Fire From the Moon" and this song? Is actually about Cinder Fall...
Who is She/What Has She Done
Yep, for those who are invested in RWBY universe, you already know who Cinder Fall is right? Well, let me reiterate that again for you: She's basically an enigmatic minion of Salem and possibly one of RWBY's most infamous villain besides Adam Taurus because why not? Anyways, in this song, Like Fire From The Moon, Word of God says that this song is about what Cinder is planning right now. Anyways, I'll leave the lyrics as always to decide your judgement on this song:
"VERSE 1:
I got a need, I've got this need
It turns me in my sleep
It's bitter and it's sweet
It's everything I need
So come with me, just come with me
We'll bring them to their knees
With fear and villainy
Go down in history
CHORUS:
We are many but so few
We've come here just to destroy you
And though you're fighting to survive
You won't succeed while we're alive
I hold your future in the past
Enjoy the seasons whilst they last
And now you're trying to explain
The Fall is never quite the same
VERSE 2:
So do you see, now do you see
The plan is perfectly
Divide them and they'll be unable to retreat
In time you'll see, what we can be
And count it as defeat
Repeat, repeat, repeat
Bring heroes to their knees
BRIDGE 1:
So raise your walls and bring your troops
I'll rain like fire from the moon
This force of nature's mine to bend
Destroy your strongest defenses
So send your men and send your ships
I'll send them back in tiny bits
This forces of nature's mine to wield
Our destiny's are all but sealed
BRIDGE 2:
I taste victory
It's my everything
BRIDGE 3:
We are lightning, rolling thunder
We are oceans pull you under
COUNTER CHORUS:
And now you'll see
Why her destiny's for me"
So to whit about the song: Cinder is planning to defeat the heroes because why not? (And it's pretty generic if you view the lyrics) and when the heroes tries to sent their men, she has no hesitation to threaten to murder them by chopping them into tiny bits. So yea...More on that in the Mitigating Factors/Heinous Standard section...
Mitigating Factors/Heinous Standard
Now here's the thing why I'm not sure if she qualifies or not. Here's the thing about the song: It's made clear that Cinder spoke to someone about her plan but the issue is you could argue that someone is rather ambiguous. It could be us or other innocent people that got involved in her plan. But I could go with both. And speaking of her plans...
Now here's where it cause some hesitation. If you look at the lyrics, you could argue that Cinder's plans is...A bit generic given that she wants to defeat the heroes and all. But then there's this part:
"So raise your walls and bring your troops
I'll rain like fire from the moon
This force of nature's mine to bend
Destroy your strongest defenses
So send your men and send your ships
I'll send them back in tiny bits
This forces of nature's mine to wield
Our destiny's are all but sealed"
Now while you could argue that the song made Cinder seems generic. I guess you could argue that this part alone could push Cinder a little bit given that she threatens to kill all of the troops the heroes sent and she made a promise that she will kill them and sent them back to the heroes into tiny beats. You could argue that this is an attempted mass murder in brutal way but you could also argue that it's Fridge at its finest. So yeah...I'm torn on this one.
Final Verdict
Ultimately I have to abstain but lean no. Now, you could see her plan is pretty much generic as hell. But if you see the part regarding her planning to murder the troops probably could push her over. However, whether you could argue this is Fridge Horror or not, I'll let you guys decide. Even if she got downvoted, I'm cool with it.
Also, sure to Torreto and Fleming. I'll handle my writeups after this
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Lighty and Scraggle's candidates.
Sadly, no to Cinder. Her villainy sounds too generic.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I thought sharks were my friends.
Abstain
RIP KissAnime.
Moretto and Fleming
Lizzid people!
Doesn't really sound like Cinder does anything aside from threatening some people.
Moretto and Fleming
Edited by AustinDR on Sep 10th 2019 at 11:48:18 AM
this image
◊ of Yellow Bastard is listed under the Comic Books folder, shouldn't it be under the Film folder?
Also there's this for Kevin
Even Evil Has Standards:Word of God is Kevin hates Roark Jr. and thinks he's an abomination. He briefly appears in the story and apparently ignores Hartigan as he goes to finish off Roark Jr. Any disgust from Kevin is not really apparent from the panels themselves, however. When a cannibal finds a rapist repulsive, you know something's all kinds of wrong in this series.
should I cut it?
Edited by nwotyzal on Sep 10th 2019 at 8:16:54 AM