During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
What is the Work Silver, a 1999 rpg for computer and Dreamcast
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
He is an Evil Sorcerer who rules the world of Jarrah with an iron fist. Despite this, he wants even more power. He has his son Fuge and his henchmen capture a bunch of women, supposedly so Silver can pick a bride from amongst them, when he secretly plans to sacrifice them to the evil god Apocalypse. During the story we learn he is an Abusive Parent to his daughter Glass, and that he killed her mother (his previous wife), which eventually leads to her making a Heel–Face Turn. We also see him magically murder a famous painter, seemingly just For the Evulz. Late in the story you find out you have a mole working for Silver who turns out to be William, however, he was only doing it because Silver said he's spare his wife if he did. When you finally meet Silver he tells William he's gonna sacrifice his wife anyway, and kills William when he objects. Vile to the end, he tries to pull a Strike Me Down with All of Your Hatred! on David once he is defeated. David resists, only for Silver to get killed by Nemesis, who says he's too dangerous to live.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None. Nemesis even makes a point that he murdered his wife before he became a powerful wizard, meaning he was evil even back when he was a "normal" person. He doesn't have any funny or Pet the Dog moments either.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
He's by far the most evil of the bad guys. Even the God of Evil Apocalypse doesn't come across as bad as he does (although this may be partly because we only see him at the very end as a Final Boss.)
Final Verdict?
I would say absolutely he counts.
Edited by Bootlebat on Sep 8th 2019 at 7:03:55 AM
Swartz, don't forget that he's going to come back in V-Cinema as Sougo's goofy teacher. A shame that Swartz and the Time Jackers were some of the most forgettable villains in the history of Kamen Rider.
At least their theme song is cool
.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 8th 2019 at 11:13:55 AM
Mass sacrifice, I Lied, a generous dollop of completely pointless murder done just to illustrate how nasty the character is? I'll vote yes, however tentatively, to Silver.
Swartz and Silver
I also noticed that in Jonas Venture's writeup, there's a small mistake (Jonas did not trade his bodyguard away; he took the bodyguard of someone else as "payment" for "helping" the man conceive a child...by sleeping with the man's wife), and also leaves out a pretty important detail (attempting to have the Blue Morpho killed so that he can steal his body for himself, and then getting angry and trying to do it himself when this order is refused).
Here's the current writeup:
- Complete Monster: Dr. Jonas Venture is the self-absorbed and abusive father of Thaddeus "Rusty" Venture who masquerades as a noble and beloved adventurer and scientist. Taking Rusty on dangerous adventures since he was three years old, Jonas allowed him to be trapped, tortured and put in harm's way, to allow himself the excitement of "rescuing" Rusty as the hero. When working on scientific inventions, Jonas frequently grew bored of his works with dire consequences, in one instance leaving a group of orphans to suffer drug-induced nightmares after an A.I. he created ran rampant, much to Jonas' apathy. His own team meaning nothing to him, Jonas viewed his bodyguard as property, trading him away, and turns another into a violent Blood Knight by forcing him to use dangerous drugs. Ruining the life of his "best friend" Blue Morpho, Jonas coerces the happily married man into an orgy, then blackmails Morpho with the knowledge and forces him to do his dirty work, and later resurrects Morpho into a cyborg slave, which earned the disgust of his team. Killing any villains he grows bored of, Jonas proves under the exterior of grand heroics he paints himself with to be an utterly despicable Psychopathic Manchild.
And my tweaked version:
- Complete Monster: Dr. Jonas Venture is the self-absorbed and abusive father of Thaddeus "Rusty" Venture who masquerades as a noble and beloved adventurer and scientist. Taking Rusty on dangerous adventures since he was three years old, Jonas allowed him to be trapped, tortured and put in harm's way, to allow himself the excitement of "rescuing" Rusty as the hero. When working on scientific inventions, Jonas frequently grew bored of his works with dire consequences, in one instance leaving a group of orphans to suffer drug-induced nightmares after an A.I. he created ran rampant, much to Jonas' apathy. His own team meaning nothing to him, Jonas viewed his bodyguard as property, taking him from his "best friend" Blue Morpho as "payment," and turned another into a violent Blood Knight by forcing him to use dangerous drugs. Ruining Morpho's life, Jonas coerces the happily married man into an orgy, then blackmails Morpho with the knowledge and forces him to do his dirty work, and later resurrects Morpho into a cyborg slave, which earned the disgust of his team. After spending several decades in a mostly-dead state, Jonas attempts to have the cyborg Morpho killed so that he may steal his body for himself, and then flies into a rage and tries to do it himself once this order is refused. Killing any villains he grows bored of, Jonas proves under the exterior of grand heroics he paints himself with to be an utterly despicable Psychopathic Manchild.
Edited by rosewood47 on Sep 8th 2019 at 10:45:30 AM
Swartz and Silver.
Can I just say I find it funny how before Crow came into the scene, barely any of us talked about Kamen Rider. When he started proposing a crapload of candidates from the franchise, suddenly everyone wanted to propose and discuss it.
Not angry, I just think it’s funny.
@Cr0w: Is Swartz better or worse than KR Scissors?
Edited by therealjackieboy on Sep 8th 2019 at 8:19:28 AM
It's Spooky Month!Easy
Swartz and I Silver too.
@Crow: Yep he's not the most interesting Bad guy that's for sure especially compared to his two direct predecessors. Well here's hoping his successor has more of an oomph.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."@Jackie Shit, good question... Well, at least Swartz wasn't devoured by his own Pokemon.
Now, for the man himself...
Who is he? Possibly the scariest example of From Nobody to Nightmare in the history of the franchise, Sougo Tokiwa was once a seemingly harmless boy who, after losing his parents in a traffic "accident", was approached by a mysterious man in fedora, aka Swartz, and offered the chance to become a king to protect the world from destruction; although Sougo would later believe that the man came from a dream, the experience motivated him to pursue the goal of achieving kingship. Growing up to be an eccentric underachiever with an absurd dream who never had any real friends, Sougo spent most of his life alone, a nobody who only had his great-uncle to take care of him, but that would change when Sougo obtained the power to become Kamen Rider Zi-O; with his newfound power, Sougo came to the conclusion that the only way to become the "greatest king in history" was to trigger an apocalypse and establish a so-called military rule. On April 7, 2019, the infamous Oma's Day, Sougo combined the powers of all previous Kamen Riders into himself and finally became Oma Zi-O, the Demon King of Time, and used several gigantic mechas called Dai Mazines to cause worldwide destruction, eventually killing half of the human population to rule over what remained with an iron fist.
Fastforward to 2068, billions have died and earth has been turned into a wasteland, Old Man Sougo is very much active here and completely annihilates the resistance that was formed to combat him; Oma Zi-O's influence drove a captain of the resistance, Woz, to betray his comrades and ally himself with Oma Zi-O as his fanatical follower. History repeats itself and his past-self also becomes Kamen Rider Zi-O, but thanks to the interference of multiple parties, including the resistance fighters and the Time Jackers, time is in constant change, resulting in Sougo not becoming Oma Zi-O on the prophesied Oma's Day. Still existing in the future, Oma Zi-O eventually meets the younger Sougo and assures him that he is his future, delighted at the fact that Sougo swore to become a kind and great king when Oma Zi-O swore the exact same thing and honestly believes that he succeeded in becoming the perfect king.
When Sougo chose to destroy his Driver to avoid becoming Oma Zi-O, Old Man Sougo again laughed as he was erased from time because he knew Sougo wouldn't abandon his dream so easily, and he was right, Oma Zi-O was soon restored to existence. Seeing himself as an Evil Mentor towards the young Sougo, but at the same time choosing not to directly intervene with the past because he was curious to see which decisions Sougo would make. In their final confrontation, Sougo, having acquired the Zi-OTrinity form, which is basically powered by the Power of Friendship, battles Oma Zi-O; since Old Man Sougo never had friends, he never had Zi-OTrinity in his arsenal and doesn't know how to react to it, Sougo gains the upper-hand for a brief moment and sends his older self flying; when Sougo explains that his power works with the help of friends that Oma Zi-O never had, Old Man Sougo is not shocked but amused by his words.
Revealing that the true extent of Oma Zi-O's power could destroy time and space, Old Man Sougo sends his younger self back to 2019 to fight Swartz, openly expressing his desire to see which timeline his younger self would destroy. After the death of Swartz, Sougo, now with the powers of Oma Zi-O, returned for a last conversation with Old Man Sougo and revealed that he chose to use his powers for creation instead of destruction in contrast to Old Man Sougo, how? By erasing his timeline to create a world where Swartz never messed with the past and Sougo couldn't become Oma Zi-O, not only because Swartz doesn't have time powers, but also because Sougo now has friends to stop him from giving in to his inner darkness; Old Man Sougo informed his younger self that he would never have another chance to become a king again, and after Sougo replied by saying that he actually could but without becoming Kamen Rider Zi-O, Old Man Sougo was again amused by his decision and let himself be erased as well, having enjoyed the experience of observing his younger self.
Mitigating Factors? Old Man Sougo never talks about his deceased parents or his great-uncle, which might imply that he was one of his victims. With that being said, Old Man Sougo is far more complex than Swartz in terms of personality, Word of God acknowledges that he is in fact the "worst king", but he's such a Tautological Templar that he doesn't stop his younger self from erasing him. Aside from Woz, who he corrupted to be fanatically loyal to him, the only person that Old Man Sougo respects is literally himself, turning Tsukoyomi into another Kamen Rider to help Sougo in defeating Swartz even if he believed that it was pointless; even in his last moments, Old Man Sougo never showed remorse for destroying civilization, but instead looked forward to see which future Sougo would create.
Heinous? As the human with the highest number of confirmed victims in the franchise: billions, Old Man Sougo is not only the most powerful Kamen Rider in history, but also the worst, congrats.
Conclusion? Since Old Man Sougo is a much more complex candidate, i'll leave it up to you guys.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 8th 2019 at 2:59:16 PM
to Sougo and Silver
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 8th 2019 at 6:16:09 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff

Swartz.
Why so serious?