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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#17926: Oct 15th 2013 at 1:02:12 PM

Quirrel Mort? Voldy already counts. Anyway, Mike [tup] Dr. Block [tdown] and cut that from Hamill.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#17927: Oct 15th 2013 at 1:12:29 PM

Okay, I was cleaning Sandbox.Complete Monster Fan Works because it's a mess, and I just found out that apparently there was already a sandbox for Fan Works which got swapped in. That means Sandbox.Complete Monster Fan Works is unneeded. Permission to cutlist it?

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17928: Oct 15th 2013 at 1:35:00 PM

@ TV rulez: PM the writers of the entries. I don't know those

@ X filo: Yes, the fact Paddock/Azazel rescues Mulder and Scully is wholly tangential and just a side effect of how she/he/it was punishing the school board. Not redeeming quality there

Keep it up, Morgenthaler and I'll be out of a job! Great work.

Now, then..

Dr. Meddows of The Blob: willing to keep, but need a writeup.

The Breakdown examples: cut

The Cobra Night Slasher: Keep, have a rewrite?

Cube Quentin: Cut

Duel Trucker: Cut

Full Metal Jacket: Burn

The Fly: Need more info. Lean keep to both.

The Frighteners: Cut. Seen the film and their love for one another is genuine.

Grindhouse: Yes for Stuntman Mike

The Haunting Hugh Crain: Keep, cut out the bits about the book and original film

Mouth of Madness Sutter Cain: Not sure, prolly a cut

The Jackal: Keep, rewrite. Not expressing emotions isn't a mark against him

James Ellroy/LA Confidential: Only one we qualified in book and movie is Dudley Smith and his film counterpart Dudley Soames

Letters from Iwo Jima: Cuts

Lord of War: cut

Men In Black: Keep and rewrite Boris

Mission Impossible and Nuremberg: Cut all

Ongbak: Keep and rewrite

''Prince Of Darkness': cut

Red Dwarf and Scanners: Cut

Pinker from Shocker: Keep. Expand

Virgil from True Romance: Cut

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17929: Oct 15th 2013 at 2:53:02 PM

@ Night Slasher: I haven't seen the film, but I've seen Film Brain's review, and from that it seems like the film is pretty much one giant Author Tract about "Justice system bad, Vigilante Executions good" (no I don't have that backwards). With that in mind, is it possible that this is another work where the writers' own moral compasses are so warped nobody can qualify?

edited 15th Oct '13 2:54:13 PM by HamburgerTime

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17930: Oct 15th 2013 at 3:03:52 PM

From what I understand, no. Vigilante stuff is a fine line, but just a thing about "this guy who kills evil people is great" isn't enough to make the work "so dark nobody counts." Look at, say, Punisher MAX which is a far more nuanced take on it, admittedly, but have Castle take on a number of utter monsters

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17931: Oct 15th 2013 at 3:10:26 PM

[up] That's not really what I'm saying. My point is the Night Slasher's entire character is being a villain so evil that summarily executing him is the only option; he exists purely as a vehicle for the film's message which, to anyone not on the far right, is itself pretty messed up. Does that make sense?

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17932: Oct 15th 2013 at 3:16:53 PM

Yes, I see what you mean. However, taken within the fictional confines, he'd still qualify as a CM. As long as the message isn't too terrible.

I mean, Batman has a pretty strong conservative message if you think about it. Government is useless, the only thing that can save us is a wealthy white guy wearing a bat suit beating up the mentally ill.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17933: Oct 15th 2013 at 3:20:07 PM

I still need opinions onFouchet & Van Cleaf and The Expendables. Right now I've just got Lightysnake's votes and my own.

@Morgenthaler

That's a heck of a lot of entries, many of them terrible. I applaud your efforts in tracking them down. Let me see...

Yes on Meaddows if a rewrite is provided. Cut the Breakdown examples for groups and Pet the Dog. Night Slasher from Cobra needs a better, less hyperbolic writeup (somehow I doubt he has a shot at bringing down all of western civilisation). Cut Quentin for ZCE and not counting. Cut the guy from Duel for the reasons listed. Cut The Door Gunner. Again. Bartok and Hines need write ups that explore their villainy, otherwise cut them. Cut The Frighteners for ZCE and good traits. For Grindhouse keep Mike and cut Block. Remove those extraneous and inaccurate Harry Potter examples. Put up The Haunting example. Cut Sutter Crane. If The Jackal counts, he needs an actual writeup that says what he does; I'll hold off my vote until we've got one. James Ellroy blanket statement has to go. I'm going to say cut those LA Confidential examples for ZCE if nothing else. Good argument to cut Tanida. Cut Lord of War example for redeeming traits and offscreen villainy. Cut Mark Hamill entry. I'm not sure about Boris The Animal; will think on it. Cut Mission Impossible statement. Cut Nuremburg. Would need actual details for Ong Bak. Cut Red Dwarf. Keep Pinker from Shocker with a better rewrite. Cut Virgil.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17935: Oct 15th 2013 at 3:59:23 PM

@HT

I get exactly where you are coming from on that one. That's why I was uncomfortable keeping Leon Vorgitch of L&O, as his entire purpose is being so evil that the show can use him to "prove" the death penalty should be a thing. Regrettably there's no rule saying that a CM can't be used to make a terrible political point.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17936: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:11:35 PM

I'm still not sure if I'm comfortable adding the Night Slasher. As prolific a murderer as the Punisher is he's typically portrayed as a deeply disturbed individual, with some writers going so far as to suggest he's just as bad as the people he kills, the only difference being he knows how to redirect his rage at the world toward Asshole Victims; by contrast, Stallone's character in Cobra is portrayed as basically a saint for endorsing vigilante justice.

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17937: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:22:42 PM

I'm sorry, but I can't see how this is different from an enormous amount of action films and stories

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17938: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:23:56 PM

[up][up]I do see your point here. How bad does the Stallone character get? How many lines does he cross? Depending upon that, I feel I can better judge if the villain should be up here or not.

Speaking of lousy propaganda books...remember this example from literature?

  • Sisterhood series by Fern Michaels has Doctor Clark Wagstaff, Doctor Sidney Lee, and Doctor Samuel La Fond from Weekend Warriors. They are rapists who used the profession to find victims. There worst action was when they raped Kathryn Lucas in front of her husband was suffering from Parkinson's and multiple sclerosis, knowing he would not be able to defend her.

It was suggested at the time that the series might be too dark and the heroes and author too morally bankrupt for there to be a qualifier. Turns out that's the case. From the Moral Event Horizon page...

  • A number of readers are convinced that the Vigilantes themselves crossed this in Vendetta. John Chai, son of the Chinese ambassador to the USA, had drunkenly hit-and-run Barbara Rutledge and her unborn child, killing them both. He then pulled a Karma Houdini with Diplomatic Impunity. The Vigilantes decide that the best punishment for the guy is to skin him alive! Certainly, he was a creep, and was being used by the author to personify Yellow Peril, but his deeds simply did not warrant that level of Disproportionate Retribution! Not only that, but the Vigilantes just shrug off what they've done afterwards. The fact that they are Villain Protagonists who become Karma Houdinis themselves, and the author expects readers to see them as heroes fighting injustice wherever they see them just makes it worse!

Our heroes, ladies and gentlemen! I want to burn this example.

edited 15th Oct '13 4:24:06 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17939: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:30:16 PM

Cobra never even crosses the lines Dirty Harry does. The most he does is be a little enthusiastic in killing bad guys and punches the obstructionist cop at the film's end.

Burn the Sisterhood one

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17940: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:33:03 PM

[up][up] Stallone doesn't really do anything pure evil; he burns the Night Slasher to death at the end which really isn't that much worse than the fates of assorted James Bond villains, so I'm not arguing Stallone is as bad as the Night Slasher here, just that the Night Slasher himself is only as bad as he is because he's a ridiculous strawman.

edited 15th Oct '13 4:33:15 PM by HamburgerTime

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17941: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:35:46 PM

Well, what about Dirty Harry which is also an incredibly messed up film politics-wise? Scorpio is as bad as he is so Harry can violate the law, torture him and still be seen as the good guy. Or all the Red Scare or Yellow Peril villains? Even the times Steven Seagal who is a rare leftist action hero, presents a Corrupt Corporate Executive strawman?

edited 15th Oct '13 4:36:50 PM by lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17942: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:36:06 PM

Having watched a review I've come to a couple of conclusions about Cobra. One—what a godawful piece of propaganda. Strawmen abound, and the situation is, of course, tailor-made for our "hero". I mean good god, the villain monologuing about his rights at the end, so that Cobra will shoot him? Jesus. Two—that being said, I don't think Cobra is dark enough to overshadow the Night Slasher, and the Night Slasher himself, while a horribly written strawman, can still qualify. Bad movie, would never watch it, but not enough so to disqualify someone.

[up]Good point there.

edited 15th Oct '13 4:39:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17943: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:40:58 PM

[up][up] Hmm, right. This would set a potentially damaging precedent; Scorpio's the freaking page image. Though I would be okay cutting Yellow Peril villains or any other strawmen under racist/xenophobic tropes, honestly.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#17944: Oct 15th 2013 at 4:59:09 PM

Zones of Thought

  • Flenser and Steel from A Fire Upon the Deep, although this only applies to the past Flenser — by the time Flenser appears in the story, he's partly a different person, due to the Tines being small-scale hive minds. It's complicated.

This doesn't make sense.

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17945: Oct 15th 2013 at 5:12:30 PM

That series has a perfectly fine writeup at the Literature section as is.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17946: Oct 15th 2013 at 5:19:23 PM

I think it's a good thing personal politics aren't used as a reason for including or cutting examples here. no offense.

lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17947: Oct 15th 2013 at 5:21:13 PM

I concur. It has be real bad for me to go to that level. Like John Ringo bad.

Two more YMMV examples to example:

Timothy from The Long Kiss Goodnight.Here's my attempt at a rewrite as the original...leaves a lot to be desired.

  • Timothy from The Long Kiss Goodnight is a sociopathic psychological operations agent who's the former lover, and target, of the amnesiac heroine. Early on, we see Timothy torturing a man who, knowing his reputation just begs for a quick death. Timothy doesn't grant it. When pursuing his ex, Charlie, she uncovers his plan with his Knight Templar boss: to stage a terrorist attack and kill over four thousand Americans to 'blame the Muslims' and get funding. While Leland is doing what he sees as right for the country in the long run, Timothy is in for the money and the fun. When he has Charlie hostage with her eight year old daughter, he plans to throw them in a meat locker to freeze to death. Charlie informs him the girl, Caitlin, is Timothy's child. He confirms this by seeing she has his eyes- and then angrily locks her in the meat locker to die anyways.

The second is from the anime Record Of Lodoss War. There are two entries, one being Governor Rabido, but I can't remember him doing much.

  • Wagnard of Record of Lodoss War is an Evil Sorcerer who was kicked out of his wizard's academy for practice of the black arts. As a result, the egotistical Wagnard has decided to awaken the destroyer Goddess Kardis and cause The End of the World as We Know It largely out of nothing more than spite and a petty grudge. Wagnard uses many as pawns, leading to large scale battles and many deaths to catch the pure-hearted priestess Neese, who is the reincarnation of Kardis. Wagnard spares no effort in trying to murder her friends, and when he has Neese captive, subjects her to Cold-Blooded Torture to awaken Kardis within her. At the end, Wagnard expresses sheer glee in awakening Kardis to kill all that lives, solely so he can reign supreme in a 'Kingdom of the Dead.'

edited 15th Oct '13 5:50:28 PM by lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17948: Oct 15th 2013 at 5:34:25 PM

[up]If that's the case, let's switch them out.

Anyone else have an opinion on the Sisterhood examples? In the meantime, here's a possible write-up for James Munroe from The Expendables.

  • The Expendables has rogue CIA agent James Munroe, The Big Bad of the first film. A drug smuggler and mercenary, Munroe is responsible for his partner, General Garza transforming the island of Vilena into a Police State, using the people as labour in their drug operation. During his first scene, Munroe kills one prisoner, then derides Garza for his lack of spine, forcing the General to murder a second prisoner in order to save face. When the Expendables raid Vilena, Munroe captures Garza's daughter, Sandra, who opposes her father's government, and has her waterboarded over Garza's objections. He contracts former Expendable, Gunnar, to kill the rest of the team, and when Garza turns on him following the Expendables' assault on Vilena, he shoots the General In the Back, kills the rest of his security detail, and tries to make good his escape, though not before instructing Paine and The Brit to torture Barney Ross, and taking Sandra hostage to use as a Human Shield. Caring only for his profits, Munroe is willing to wreck an entire country in order to increase them.

How's that sound? And can I please cut Paine, Vilein, and Hector? I still only have one okay to do so, with no other agreement or any counterarguments.

edited 18th Oct '13 9:48:35 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#17949: Oct 15th 2013 at 5:36:52 PM

[up][tup] for Munroe. Also, cut the Sisterhood examples and the other Expendables villains.

edited 15th Oct '13 5:38:13 PM by TommyFresh

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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