During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay. Here we go.
What's the work? RWBY: After the Fall is a 2019 novel by E. C. Myers that takes place in the world of RWBY. It follows Team CFVY after the Fall of Beacon, where they moved to the deserts of Vacuo and have spent the last year training at Shade Academy.
Who are the villains? The main antagonists of the novel are the Huntsman and Huntress duo Bertilak Celadon and Carmine Esclados, who are, in reality, traffickers tasked with kidnapping people with powerful Semblances.
What have they done? Carmine Esclados and Bertilak Celadon were partnered together when they were training at Shade Academy. However, upon graduating, they applied their skills to trafficking, working for someone only known as the "boss". Their mission was to kidnap people with powerful or useful Semblances, then deliver them to the boss.
At some point, they were tasked with targeting elderly, retired Huntsman Edward Caspian, who they believed had the ability to amplify others' emotions, which could potentially attract Grimm to whatever place they desired. Carmine and Bertilak tracked him down and posed as bodyguards-for-hire, and Edward hired them to protect him and his grandson August "Gus" Caspian while they traveled from Vale to the Vacuo settlement of Gossan. Seeing as how they intended to take him that way anyway (they plan on taking them to their boss at one of the shores where there is no civilization or connection to the CCT Towers), they agreed and escorted the Caspians on their journey. Along the way, the emotion amplifying Semblance created what they called "mood bombs", brief and powerful amplifications of negative emotion that attracted Grimm. In order to maintain their cover, Carmine and Bertilak fought off the Grimm, but allowed the Grimm to destroy each settlement they traveled through in order to force the Caspians to keep moving. Even after they helped the Caspians and others evacuate, took much of the credit in order to boost their reputations (they state later in the book that they hated having to protect the settlements at all).
However, Edward begins to catch on that the two know more than they're letting on, and sends out a distress signal to Shade to help the fleeing survivors, not fully trusting his bodyguards. Shade sends Team CFVY, who helps out the wandering survivors while trying to figure out the secret behind the "mood bombs". They first meet Bertilak in a bar, where he at first only comes off as a brutish jerk, as well as a xenophobe who assaults one of the waitresses for being a Faunus and bullies Velvet. Carmine is better at hiding their true intentions, as she acts friendly and affable to the students (so far as getting Coco to develop a crush on her), and defusing issues caused by Bertilak. Despite their act, Team CFVY is immediately suspicious of them due to how they keep the Caspians away from everyone else.
Coco and Fox get Carmine and Bertilak away from the Caspians temporarily by offering to help with guard duty, and Velvet and Yatsuhashi go to interrogate the Caspians and see if they know anything about the mood bombs, which they deny. However, another one strikes, and the settlement's leader Slate suggests that they spread out the survivors so tensions don't rise again. Carmine and Bertilak are suspiciously enthusiastic about the idea, but it ends up getting shot down. Clearly getting desperate to get their target while still maintaining their cover, Carmine stays at the settlement while Bertilak lures a sleepwalking Edward into the desert and tries to abduct him. However, he is met by Fox, and plays it off as retrieving the senile old man and bringing him back to the settlement. Carmine feigns relief, but Edward and Gus decide to come clean that the ever more senile Edward's Semblance is to amplify emotions, and that Gus' is to cancel out other Semblances, which he has been trying to do with his grandfather. Bertilak and Carmine pretend to be surprised, and they both try to forcefully remove the two from the settlement for the "safety of everyone else", but Team CFVY won't allow it. This, however, causes yet another mood bomb that attracts a swarm of Grimm. Carmine stays to "help", when in actuality she uses the attack as a cover to let Bertilak finally kidnap Edward as she and the others leave.
Fox (who, in case you didn't know, is blind) realizes that Edward and Bertilak have gone missing, and sets out to find them. He tracks them down, but Bertilak takes advantage of the old man's memory loss and allows him to fight Fox. Fox wins and gets Edward back to reality, and Edward reveals that he lied: he has the power to cancel out Semblances, and Gus is the one that amplifies emotions (he lied to protect Gus from potential angry mobs). However, Bertilak ambushes Fox. He then messages Carmine that Gus is the target.
However, a sandstorm forms, and the survivors are forced to mount a giant flatback slider (giant sand turtle) to take cover in the grooves of its giant shell. Carmine takes the opportunity to knock Gus out and kidnap him, escaping in the chaos.
Meanwhile, Bertilak confronts Fox and Edward, revealing his true intentions, and stating that the only reason he stuck with the Caspians and "protected" the others was to earn their trust. He explains that his boss has been rounding up people with useful Semblances for a while, and that Edward and Gus were nothing more to him but more targets. He then beats Fox within an inch of his life, all while using his heat manipulation Semblance to torture him with excruciating heat. While he is torturing Fox, Bertilak also explains that he always hated Ozpin and Shade headmaster Theodore, and believed their ideas for peace were weak and foolish. However, with Edward's help, Fox is able to finally fight back. Bertilak tries to murder them both, but they team up on him and eventually knock him unconscious, tying him up and carrying him back to the others.
Meanwhile, Carmine (with the kidnapped Gus), uses her telekinetic Semblace to kick up a second massive, lethal sandstorm to send at the survivors, further distracting them as well as covering her tracks. As Coco and Velvet stay to defend the survivors from a massive new Grimm summoned by the chaos, Yatsuhashi meets up with Fox and Edward to go after Carmine and rescue Gus. Yatsuhashi uses his memory wiping Semblance to make the still-unconscious Bertilak forget about fighting Fox or revealing his true nature. They catch up to Carmine, and Yatsuhashi attacks her, but she proves too strong and tries to use her Semblance to suffocate him in the sand. Bertilak wakes back up, and Gus and Fox convince him that Carmine betrayed him and tried to take Gus for herself. Bertilak tries to kill Carmine, inadvertently saving Yatsuhashi. Carmine is angered by the idea of Bertilak turning on her, and tries to kill him too. She sends a blast of sand at him and Edward; Bertilak uses his heat to turn her attack into glass, but Edward is buried alive. Coco, Velvet, and Fox join in to take her down. Coco fires her minigun at Carmine, but she uses her telekinesis to redirect the bullets at Velvet, and uses her telekinesis on her sais to stab Fox through the legs, rendering him immobile. Coco hits Carmine in the face, disgusted that she ever found her attractive, and Yatsuhashi and Velvet drop Bertilak's glass wall on top of her.
However, Carmine tunnels under the sand and tries to drag Gus down with her, and creates a series of sinkholes to bury Team CFVY, Edward, and Bertilak alive. Edward manages to block her Semblance at the last minute, dissipating the sandstorm and allowing Team CFVY to dig Carmine out.
Carmine and Bertilak (who regains his memory soon after) are taken into custody, and handed over to the authorities when they reach the next settlement.
Mitigating factors? Freudian excuses? It is unknown for just how long Carmine and Bertilak have been trafficking. However, a rough estimate can be made as they: 1) know their boss extremely well and 2) Bertilak's speech reveals that they intended to use their training for this since the beginning, and they graduated many years before the story takes place.
And while Carmine and Bertilak are technically partners, it's made clear later that they don't like each other, as evidenced by Bertilak immediately trying to kill Carmine when he thinks she's double-crossed him and her not having a second thought when trying to kill him for the same reason.
However, there is the one part where a memory-wiped Bertilak turns on Carmine, breifly fighting alongside the heroes in his attempt for revenge. I personally see this as more Pragmatic Villainy, as he's basically allowing them to gang up on her to better his own chances of taking her down, but I'll admit that it can be open to interpretation.
Heinous standard? So this takes place in the RWBY canon. That means Carmine and Bertilak have to compete with the White Fang, Cinder's Faction, and Roman Torchwick (all of who are mentioned in the book). The only other villain in the book itself is the boss that Carmone and Bertilak mention, who is never seen, heard from, or has their identity revealed in any way.
Verdict? Tough call. They don't succeed in their mission and the nature of their past crimes are unknown, but they still kidnap a ten-year-old boy with the intent of trafficking him, beat and torture a blind boy and elderly man, and cause chaos and lethal disasters just to distract people and cover their tracks. I personally would be fine either way but lean towards
.
Edited by SumDumNerd on Aug 10th 2019 at 12:00:36 PM
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation hereI'm not sure. I'm going with a weak yea for now, but I'll wait for others' opinions.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Abstaining on the RWBY duo.
I think the Monster Quotes discussion is pretty much dead. I'd like to propose a quote here, if that's all right.
Short, simple, and gets it across without need for context.
Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Aug 10th 2019 at 11:39:34 AM
RIP KissAnime.
to the RWBY Novel Duo.
The fact their agenda is more realistic and less-outlandish than most of the series. It shows that despite the simplicity of their actions and that while they don't have a grand agenda like other villains, they offer a side of RWBY that isn't seen as much within the story.
Even when they allude to things like racism and trafficking, it's never outright stated or spoken of, with only one scene in the entire show actually depicting racism and not just bullying and off-screen mentions of it. Trafficking is never discussed either but this novel does tackle that subject and plays it off in a more realistic light.
I'm gonna
the RWBY Duo for now.
I think Recources are also noteworthy. Cinder is part of Salems inner circle and can order some Grimm around. And Adam was a high ranking part of the White Fang.
Also Jaques implied crimes involving Faunas trafficking are just that, implied.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
to the RWBY duo and PC Principal!
Hey guys so I’ve been thinking about this guy for a while and since I just finished watching all the playthroughs and cutscenes I believe that I’m ready to EP this guy, from Killzone Liberation.
What’s the Work?
Killzone Liberation is a Playstation Portable Video Game that takes place two months after the events of the first Killzone game. The game follows Jan Templar and his squad as they travel to South Vekta to liberate it from the Helghast occupation led by this man General Armin Metrac.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Armin Metrac is the Big Bad of Liberation and a sadistic General of the Helghast army who was task with claiming Southern Vekta for the Helghast Empire. He would eventually take over the eastern area of Southern Vekta and under his occupation he would brutally torture and murder thousands of people, soldiers and civilians alike.
Armin Metrac would attack a base belonging to the Vekta forces the ISA and kidnap the VIPs there using them as hostages to get all ISA forces to leave Southern Vekta. He would then proceed to torture his captives so brutally that one of them died because of them before he has his dragon Tendon Cobar bring the corpse to Jan as a warning.
He would also be the one to have persuade ISA general Dwight Stratson to defect the ISA and join his side where he convinces Stratson to give him the nuclear weapons to which Armin would use to nuke all of South Vekta and take over what’s left of it which would kill hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions.
Armin would then kidnapped Evelyn Batton and Ricco Velasquez, kidnapping the former to brutally torture with constant electrocution until she tells him the nuclear codes and kidnapping the latter to frame him as the one responsible for nuking South Vekta. Luckily after hours of constant torture Evelyn would give Armin the wrong codes giving Jan enough time to save Evelyn and Ricco, kill Armin Metrac and save Southern Vekta from being nuked.
However it would be revealed that Armin has already delivered the ISA nuclear weapons to Helghan Emperor Scolar Visari for him to use. Armin’s last actions would allow Scolar Visari to use the ISA nuclear weapons Armin gave him to nuke his own capital and frame the ISA for the act thus setting the events for Killzone 2.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
No excuse other than being a vicious and sadistic general of the Helghan Empire. Now there was a time where he saved Tendon Cobar from being executed and made him his right hand man, but that’s only because he merely values Tendon as a useful tool and doesn’t care that Cobar got killed.
In fact it only adds to Metrac heinous deeds because he prevented someone whose Cleary mentally unstable from being rightfully executed for murdering his own commander before molding him into his own right-hand man, thus making Cobar even more sadistic than before. Thus, I don’t consider that a redeeming quality.
Heinousness
Even with Stahl and Viktor unleashing deadly viruses to kill millions of people for their own twisted and genocidal agendas, I think Armin Metrac manages to stand out due to his sadistic personality and the vast list atrocities that he committed.
His atrocities include, employing unstable psychopaths into his army, using brutal and lethal torture methods against numerous people, turning Southern Vekta, a once prosperous region into a horrific war zone, killing thousands of soldiers and civilians (innocent people BTW), and planning to nuke all of Southern Vekta killing millions more while framing someone for the act.
Then there’s his last act of send the ISA nuclear weapons to Scolar Vasari, allowing him to use it to nuke his own capital and frame ISA thus making Metrac culpable for that causing tragedy as well. In short I say he passes.
Final Verdict
I will leave that for you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 11th 2019 at 2:07:28 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSure to Armin Metrac.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Sure to the Principal. One of those cases of making up in "quality" what he lacks in quantity, like John Wakefield or Joshua Wright.
Leaning yes on the traffickers. Carmine's hot
.
Sure to Armin.
Don’t forget to vote for Mary especially since Elfen and TIAN already explain their points on why they think she keeps (I’m still keeping my
for Mary BTW)
Scolar had a daughter (though I’m not sure what kind the relationship was established between the two since they only interacted once onscreen). I think Lighty could better explain The reason since he is the expert on the Killzone games
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 11th 2019 at 1:55:48 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff

![[up] [up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png)
Maybe. I will say I don't quite think that's relevant to the thread.
Things are really about to get Fun around here