During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Do you mean we should put a link to the subpage for Visual Novels on the Video Games page, or we should just put them all together?
If it's about merging, it might be a better idea to merge Monster.Visual Novels and Monster.When They Cry. The latter isn't really that big, it's probably not going to grow, and it still covers two games. Monster.Ace Attorney on the other hand is more or less a few blocks of text covering a page and a half on my screen, which is enough on its own. Or maybe merge all of them and folderise.
edited 10th Oct '13 8:14:23 AM by AnotherDuck
Check out my fanfiction!My thoughts:
- Video Games
- Games with own pages
- Visual Novels
EDIT:
may work as well. Either my idea or folderize.
edited 10th Oct '13 8:18:09 AM by ACW
Promised rewrites:
- The famed Robot Romance Trilogy featured at least one in each of its entries.
- Emperor Zu Zambajil of Voltes V, ruler of the Boazanian Empire where the horned upper classes are the rulers and the hornless are little better than slaves. Zambajil engineered the overthrow of his elder brother when he discovered his good-hearted sibling was actually hornless and proceeded to hold Boazan in his grip with the Fantastic Caste System, manipulating his brother's son Prince Heinel into becoming his pawn and puppet. By manipulating Heinel, Zambajil is responsible for his actions, including his war of conquest on earth with all the atrocities and death that resulted so the Boazan empire could gain more slaves. Eventually fearing Heinel's potential, Zambajil tried to have him killed. When Boazan is taken in the war and the hornless have won their revolt, Zambajil attempt to flee and when confronted by the Voltes team, he attempts to pin everything on Heinel and let his nephew take the fall for his own war crimes.
- Empress Janera, the true Big Bad of Combattler V is cruel even by Super Robot standards. Initially wanting to Take Over the World Janera sent her monsters to destroy resistance, but was always blocked by Combattler V. It is revealed Janera even oppresses her own people, the Campbellians, inspiring their true leader Deus to return and lead a revolt against her forces. Realizing time is short, Janera opts for a new solution against Earth: leading an attack personally, she deploys a bomb to the earth's core to destroy the planet and kill everything on it.
- From the third entry in the trilogy, Daimos we have two. The first is Big Bad king Olban of the Winged Humanoid Brahmin race. While most Brahmins are Anti-Villain or Noble Demon types, Olban is a power-hungry, cold hearted tyrant who states his people only exist for him to rule them. Olban rose to power by murdering the previous king, and masterminded the war between the Brahmins and humanity. He blamed the humans for his ruler's death, taking advantage of the Brahmins' despair after the loss of their power and risking their extinction simply to gain him more to rule. He displays no compunction in attempting to murder his dead sovereign's children as well.
- Chief General of Earth, Sakimori Miwa, a brutal General Ripper who believes the best way to win a war is to exterminating your enemy to the last man. Ostensibly on the heroes' side, Miwa tries to undermine them at every time, even accusing them of treason and despite his job being to protect humanity, he doesn't care when civilians are caught in the crossfire. He also proceeds to execute groups of defeated and helpless Brahmins simply out of hatred. In many ways, the genocidal, brutal Miwa is simply as bad as the power hungry Olban.
For the film subpage...let's leave Mapache and Zodiac off for now. Sylvia Ganush...I'm not sure. But here are write-ups for Frankenstein and Chaos (I've never seen Chaos, I'm going off Wikipedia)
- In a pseudo-remake of The Last House on the Left, Eddie "Chaos" Cooper seems an attempt to outdo even Krug for monstrosity. As the leader of a brutal pack of miscreants, Chaos commits multiple murders, and even rapes a girl with his knife when she tries to escape him. Another girl is tortured, killed and has her corpse violated by him. He later kills several more people in the film's final fight.
- Victor Frankenstein of The Curse of Frankenstein gradually loses every redeeming quality he had as the films go on. A Mad Scientist obsessed with life beyond death, he plunders graves to get the parts to make his monster, and has no compunction committing murder to cover his tracks. Defined by his utter separation from human morality after a point, Frankenstein begins to gain the parts by simply murdering people and harvesting them for resources. His worst moment is when in a later film in the series, he rapes a woman for nothing more than his own satisfaction, proving his only devotion is to his own desires above even science.
edited 10th Oct '13 10:20:55 AM by Lightysnake
Made a few corrections: Mainly, Kagan's the Big Bad of the SECOND game.
That is correct, though he's the Bigger Bad of the first game.
Thanks as always though, ACW. I do appreciate it
Anyone else have an opinion on the Bakugan Battle Brawlers examples from last page?
edited 10th Oct '13 12:38:23 PM by VeryMelon
So, I just watched the Naruto filler arc that Shiranami appears in. You guys all owe me—it was deadly dull. Anyway, Shiranami was a lousy excuse for a villain, and his deeds are greatly exaggerated in his entry.
Who is Shiranami? What has Shiranami done? Are his deeds heinous by the standards of the story?
Shiranami is an exile from the near-extinct Tsuchigumo Clan. He wants control of their Forbidden Jutsu, which is basically a nuclear weapon that's as strong as the writers need it to be (and is imaginatively named The Big Bang). In an effort to gain control over said jutsu (which is tattooed on the back of a girl named Hotaru) he:
- Sends four criminal ninja after her.
- Mind controls a village into attacking Naruto, Utakata and the others when they come to save her.
- Mind controls Hotaru into using the jutsu...to blow a big hole in the ground. Seriously. He was trying to kill Naruto and Utakata, but the main thing is, he blew a big hole in the ground.
- Tries to kill Naruto when Naruto chases after him.
That's it for heinous deeds. The whole "killing his father" thing the entry lists? He brags about killing his father. In fact he brags about it nonstop. It is never shown though. No flashbacks, not even a look at the body. Just "mwahaha I killed my dad." He also boasts about how he will use the Big Bang to rule the world, but he doesn't have a real plan beyond "get jutsu, rule world." As for what SSM talked about, when he said Shiranami tries to set off the jutsu and kill everybody in town? That doesn't happen. Shiranami fails to control Hotaru properly, and her jutsu goes out of control, nearly causing a detonation? His reaction? He runs away in terror. Beyond that, all he does is act like a slimy jerk, and brag about how he doesn't care about anything. Mwahaha.
Shiranami fails the heinous standard by miles. Gaara had a higher bodycount. Sasuke has a higher bodycount. Hidan, one of our CM entries, and who I feel entirely comfortable comparing Shiranami to? Hidan slaughtered a temple's worth of monks, butchered Asuma like a pig, and participated in Yugito Nii being slowly drained of life. During the time when he was in control of Hotaru, Shiranami was briefly vastly more powerful than Hidan, but comes up ridiculously short when compared to him.
He doesn't come close to passing this criteria.
Does he have any redeeming qualities?
No. He's a smirking dick whose entire characterisation boils down to "mwahaha, I'm evil." That said, he's not even close to the most repellent character in the setting. When you contrast his attitude with that of Hidan or Orochimaru, he comes off as incredibly tame. He passes this criteria on a technical level, but fails it comparitively; he's irredeemable in a high school bully sense, not a CM sense.
Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
No.
Final verdict?
Shiranami is a joke of a villain. Despite his apparent brains, his mind control powers (which should make him very dangerous) and his briefly controlling a nuke, he comes up so short in the heinous department that it's fair to say he was never even in the running. Nominally sympathetic characters like Gaara and Sasuke all have far greater skeletons in their closets, and he's nothing next to Hidan or Orochimaru, the series' most obvious CM candidates. Shiranami needs to be cut from this list.
Shiranami from Naruto: Axe it. He'd be tame even by Septimus Heap standards.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanHere are some cut worthy example on the Anime page.
- On the subject of pre-Ghibli works, Future Boy Conan's Lepka is essentially Muska's spritual predecessor and equally as evil.
- Blade Of The Immortal:
- Anotsu Kagehisa's grandfather responds to a girl rescuing his grandson by stringing her up from a tree, bleeding and beaten, to be devoured by packs of wild dogs.
- Hyakurin's husband slices his own 8-year-old son in half, because the boy was too weak to swing a sword and killed his own infant daughter simply because she was a girl.
- Interestingly, Araya Kawakami is a subversion: he used to be a depraved bastard and is now desperately trying to bury the past so his son never knows what he really is - and he's willing to murder anyone, who gets in the way of that. He does manage, despite his crimes, to retain a measure of sympathy.
edited 10th Oct '13 2:32:24 PM by randomtroper89
Zero Context Example for the win! I say cut the lot if no one can explain.
@Septimus
That's three votes (including mine) to cut Shiranami then.
@Lightysnake
There's still some listed at 17710
. We came to conclusions on a couple of them, but not the lot.
EDIT: Thought I'd warn the thread—there's a lot of whining on the discussion page for anime & manga about V.V. of Code Geass being cut. I told them to bring it here; they may or may not do so.
edited 10th Oct '13 2:45:31 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Speaking of Code Geass...I think Bradley needs a better write-up.
- Luciano Bradley, a hired psycho and Knight of Ten from Code Geass, is even known to be a vile bastard in the eyes of most of the other characters in the show. Fearless Action Girl Kallen is visibly frightened the moment she finds out she is in the same room with him and the fact he implies planning to rape and torture her doesn't help alleviate that fear. He also kills his own men without a care (whether needed or not) and loves to kill people slowly using his mecha's energy drill while asking them what's the most important thing for them. Luciano Bradley does get a background of being abused by his parents and, as a child, killing his abusive father apparently in self defense. However, it isn't even talked about in the actual anime, just in supplementary materials and he isn't the only character in the series to have abusive parents. Luciano doesn't have a single line of dialogue in which he isn't insulting, threatening, or otherwise expressing a desire for hurting someone. and at several points comments that his only reason for being a soldier is because that way, he can kill as many people as he wants and not be punished. It's taken to the point where neither of his KOR allies, Suzaku (whom he almost killed for the hell of it, and whose deceased girlfriend he insulted) and Gino (whom he called a rich boy whose family name is the only reason for his position), seem to care at all when Kallen kills him in battle (whereas she and Gino even exchange some semi-friendly banter).
The current entry spends more time denying his Freudian Excuse and talking about him being The Dreaded than anything else. I'm not saying he doesn't count, but he does need a better explanation of what he does. Anybody here familiar enough with Code Geass to do a write-up?
Cut all those Blade Of The Immortal examples. It's a very dark series, where actions like those listed are not tremendously unusual. More to the point, though, it's a series that they share with Shira, a Serial Killer rapist who has an extensive Complete Monster entry on the manga's YMMV page and who spends most of his screentime being as astonishingly hideous as possible. There's a couple of villains who match him in heinousness (the Mad Scientist Burando and the ruthless government minister Habaki), but Burando's a tormented Well-Intentioned Extremist who eventually becomes The Atoner, whilst Habaki may be cold, but still has a humanising element here and there.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Good to know. I'll second that.
@everybody
So I was just going through the Knight of Cerebus page, and I realised that guess what—people seem to be misusing that trope in order to do what they can't do here. Gotta love that wiki magic.

X Filo:
Paddock/Azazel didn't save Mulder and Scully for any, any redeeming feature. She was punishing her failed worshipers which happened to save them. She was also rather annoyed they thought they could make things right with her still (hence the "you're right, it is too late" line)
edited 10th Oct '13 8:08:33 AM by Lightysnake