During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
A 20th Century Boy
to the Steerpike and Westcott quotes.
Neyla
Quote idea since others are doing it
If none of you know anything about those two Jekyll & Hyde PC games, I guess I can contact the troper who put all the info on them in the article (Lalalei 2001) to see if she thinks the villains qualify and if she was interested in doing an EP on either. Right now though, here is my Joker write up, the last entry for him barring fan works or new media as far as I know.
- Batman Live: The Joker Once again demonstrates his ruthless nature. The Joker has Tony Zucco kill Dick Grayson's family before killing Tony himself, and proceeds to take over Halys Circus after murdering the staff and holds Dick Grayson hostage. Abandoning Harley to be arrested, The Joker later frees the inmates of Arkham Asylum and allows them to hold the staff hostage to draw Batman in, setting off bombs throughout Gotham to prove they mean business. When Batman and Robin manage to defeat the inmates, Joker attempts to escape in a hot air balloon, stopping only to mock Harley as she begs him to take her with him and fire his machine gun down on random people.
Alright, since I'm going out of town for a day. I'm going to do an EP before I leave. So Newton brought something regarding Death Mark on the candidates and this convinces me to churn one of the candidates I monitored for a long time on my to-do list and ask Newton for permission via P Ms and he says he's okay with it as long as one of us got it first. Now that I finished watching the playthrough sans Chapter 6 of the VN. Time to EP this candidate in question:
What's the Work
Death Mark is a visual novel that tells us about a man named "Kazuo Yashiki" who stumbled upon a mansion and receives a cursed mark that would cause people to go amnesia and will died when it reaches dawn. It was soon revealed that the mansion? Was owned by a famous medium spirit, Saya Kujo, who died after she got a cursed mark. In order to fight the mark once and for all, Kazuo got an aid by a living doll of Saya Kujo named Mary. Initially she appears as a helpful ally towards Kazuo and the one who got cursed by the mark
Eeeeeexcept...
Who is She/What Has She Done
Plot twist: It turns out that Mary was the one who kickstart the plot in the first place and her helpful personality? Was revealed to be an act. Yes, she appeared as a helpful ally at first but she got broken during chapter 4 by a mysterious rabbit. Although in Chapter 5, some dark secrets began to unravel because things are not what they seems...
See here's the thing, the protagonist and his companions assumed that the project of War called Kanon Soldier was the one that caused the people to gain some mysterious marks as he went berserk and brutally kills the scientists during the war that happened 50 years ago. Except, Mary was the one who did it as it was revealed that she was sealed back then by the Kujos to tidy up the mess.
Although 5 years earlier, it was revealed that Kazuo? Was actually the person who unseal Mary and was revealed to be the older brother of Saya Kujo, Masamune Kujo. It's not because Kazuo did this to break people spirits or making people suffer, it's because of the seal that binds Mary was completely outdated and if it not replaced, she will be unstopped and as a result, Kazuo stole a statue that is able to seal Mary called nejibutsu from an abandoned shrine to renew the seal.
When Mary got released? Well, she causes several misfortune across H-City. The mass suicide of the Honey-Bee Family cult? The suicide of an innocent woman who just got married after got gang-raped? The person who turned a misantrophic scientist into becoming worse than before? Was all her doing as she needed those spirits to curse other innocent people so that she could savor their fears.
And yeah, given what I said, it was also revealed that she lied to Kazuo regarding the mark that could kill him and wanted to keep him alive so that she could savor his own fear. After she reveals her true colors and manage to fix herself, she turns herself from a beautiful doll into a monstrous form so that he could kill Kazuo.
Though fortunately however, Kazuo manages to defeat Mary once and for all by sealing her powers via nejibutsu. However, in the epilogue...Mary somehow manages to fix herself again although her power will be sealed for the next decades. And in the same epilogue, it was revealed that her backstory is that she's a doll created by someone by black magic and her owners before meeting the Kujo family were met in mysterious deaths so that's something to consider...
Heinous Standard
Death Mark is pretty dark. There are a lot of Serial Killers who kills their victims in a rather gruesome way and there's also several rapists like the Principal from the first chapter, the gangs who gangraped an innocent woman in chapter 3, or the BDSM Teacher from the sixth chapter which I haven't touch yet. And yeah, you could argue that Kazuo himself contributes to the standard given he's an Unwitting Instigator of Doom by unsealing Mary although it was revealed that he didn't want to cause more casualties and just want to replace the seal because the old seal that binds her deteriorates as year went by so yea...
But Mary? I'm going to give her some slack here as she's the one behind the bad things that happened in the story and it's far from ambiguous either as she's aware on what's happening and enjoy to consume other innocent people's fears. The protagonist also confirms that most of the bad things happening (Mostly in Chapter 2-5) can be traced to Mary so yea...
Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors
Now here's a rather tricky one. Now, in Death Mark's main page, there's this All There in the Manual entry:
"Mary's origins and identity are left largely a mystery in the main game. However, the artbook included in the limited edition details her history. A small town, which would eventually become H City, was plagued by a curse. To suppress this, people were ritually sacrificed every fifty years, the first being a foreign girl with strong spiritual energy. Eventually, the Kujous created elaborate living dolls infused with spiritual energy to contain the curse, but the knowledge behind the dolls was lost in the war. One particular doll, resembling the foreign girl, was particularly powerful. When Mary awoke, she was fueled by the power of the curse she contained and the grudges of countless human sacrifices."
Yes, it was revealed in the artbook and I ask you guys months ago about how should we take All There in the Manual cases and some of you guys said that they aren't compatible with each other and the issue with this is that? It never happened in the game as Mary's story was left vague on who she was and the information in the manual itself? Kind of contradicts what happened in the game as her backstory in game was described that her previous owners before getting adopted by the Kujo families and checking on the official Death Mark wiki? It doesn't mention the details of the curse or people being sacrificed every fifty years so take that as you will...
Aside from that, heavens no...Mary is a rather sadistic doll who loves to consume other people fears because she enjoys it and calls it rather tasty so yea...
Final Verdict
Your call. I'll let Newton handle the rest as he also play the game. If there's any questions you want to ask, Ask away.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 11th 2019 at 2:05:20 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."For now, I'll abstain for Mary.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Popping in here for a quick update to Veronica Mars, which was on my to-do list for upcoming works. It's been Un-Cancelled after The Movie with another season released to Hulu.
As far as Complete Monster goes, nobody qualifies. Dick Casablancas Sr., a crooked real estate developer and white collar criminal from past seasons, truly goes off the deep end and conspires with a Mad Bomber to kill numerous people during spring break, intending to drive down property values and buy them on the cheap. However, he has still has redeeming traits. I believe in season 3, he was genuinely hurt and emotional when his oldest son confronted him about his youngest son, Cassidy, going Ax-Crazy in part from his family's bullying. In the current season, he seems to be on good terms again with his remaining son.
The second candidate, a copycat of the original Mad Bomber who engages in Criminal Mind Games with the Mars family, I think is too insane to count. He's essentially a Psychopathic Manchild, but portrayed as a completely delusional creep who doesn't understand games are different from real life. Played by Patton freaking Oswalt btw. Also, his interactions with his female best friend, whom he starts to romance at one point, is far too ambiguous to simply discount.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Aug 10th 2019 at 12:44:58 PM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Oh, that character is just a Mook. No dialogue, Killed Offscreen, and treated as an afterthought compared to the guy who hired him.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Aug 10th 2019 at 12:48:32 PM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"I've got a potential candidate for a monster, from the 1997 film adaptation of Jungle Emperor Leo, more infamously known as Kimba the White Lion. Many people know this as the anime that The Lion King supposedly "ripped off". Whether its true or not will not be discussed. Instead, we have our candidate, Ham Egg.
Who is Ham Egg? What does he do?
In this film adaptation of the last half of the series, Ham Egg is a down on luck poacher, desperately trying to sell off a gemstone that he found in the Bajalu jungle. Unfortunately for him, he ends up getting turned down by every pawn shop and jeweller he could find. He is then hauled off by mysterious men in suits.
As it turns out, the gem in Ham Egg's possession is the "moonlight stone", a mineral that could serve as a power source that could potentially prevent the energy crisis. The men in suits are part of an scientific organisation who are trying to utilise the stone, and want to recruit Ham Egg to help locate the source of the stone so it could be salvaged and help humanity. Of course, Ham Egg refuses unless he gets paid and says he couldn't care less about "saving the world". That is, until the head of the organisation reveals that he knows of Ham Egg's illegal poaching activities, blackmailing him into their employ.
Setting up a team of his choosing, primarily of his old poaching friends, Ham Egg travels to the jungle, accompanied by Mr. Lemonade of the organisation, as well as Dr. Moustache who is already stationed in the jungle. Ignoring Dr Moustache's advice that the stone is in Mt Moon (no not the Pokemon one), Ham Egg deduces that the moonlight stone is in the jungle itself, rationalising that since he found the gem in the jungle, the source shouldn't be far away. Ham Egg and his team then begin demolishing the jungle, while shooting and killing any animal they come across. This act horrifies both Mr Lemonade and Dr Moustache.
Ham Egg's actions begin to have indirect ramifications as well. Tearing down the jungle ends up causing a flash flood that devastates the jungle even further and even endangers his own team. Ham Egg then "concludes" that the stone must be located in Mt. Moon, disregarding the fact that he had just devastated the jungle and killed many animals for nothing. To make matters worse, the sudden environmental changes also cause a deadly disease to spread amongst the animals, with Kimba/Leo's mate Kitty/Lyra being among the casualties. By then, Dr Moustache and Mr Lemonade finally had enough and defected from the team to help the animals instead, as well as stop Ham Egg from finding the stone.
Ham Egg and his team then begin their trek up Mt. Moon to find the stone. Due to the treacherous environment, his team began dropping like flies. Ham Egg disregards the lives of his "friends", justifying that their deaths are because of their own carelessness and not because of his incompetence.
Scaling the snowy mountain, Ham Egg is attacked by a wolf, whom he shoots in self-defence. However, the gunshot triggers an avalanche that kills off the remainder of his team. Meanwhile, Kimba, Dr Moustache and Mr Lemonade manage to find the source of the stone. But before they could celebrate, Lemonade is shot dead by Ham Egg, who survived the avalanche. Kimba, finally reaching his breaking point, attacks and defeats Ham Egg. Ham Egg, driven mad by greed, devours one of the stones only to die from poisoning.
Heinousness? Competition?
When he first appears, Ham Egg appears to be nothing more than just a greedy asshole who's Only in It for the Money. However, once he arrives in the jungle, he begins to show his true colours by having the jungle razed, showing no care for the innocent animals around. If that's not enough, Ham Egg also begins to indiscriminately shoot any animal in his path. For example, a mother boar gets her children crushed by a bulldozer, and tries in vain to charge it. Despite her posing no real threat, Ham Egg gleefully shoots her dead, just because For the Evulz. This greed also extends to expense of not only animals, but human lives as well. He forces his team on a treacherous search for the stone, blinded by the prospect of making a fortune over the welfare of his team. He also shoots Mr Lemonade, one of his employers, dead, so he could keep the stone for himself.
In terms of comparing him to any potential antagonists in the film, Ham Egg is the sole Big Bad. Other antagonists would be the Greater-Scope Villain who has no qualms employing someone like Ham Egg, but he has a well-intentioned goal of trying to solve the energy crisis. Another would be the ringmaster of a circus in the sub story involving Kimba's cub Lune who abuses the animals in his employ. But at least when the circus catches fire, the ringmaster has the decency to stay behind to save some of the animals there, including Lune. Thus, Ham Egg stands out as the most vile individual in the film.
Ham Egg is also indirectly responsible for the tragedies throughout the film. As stated earlier, his destruction of the ecosystem led to the spread of a deadly disease that kills Kimba's mate among many others. And later, Kimba ends up performing a Heroic Sacrifice to save Dr Moustache after Ham Egg's death atop the mountain.
Somehow, Ham Egg turns out to be even worse than his original manga counterpart, who happens to be a former SS Officer. A Nazi. Because original Ham Egg has a redeeming quality in his daughter, and spends his final moments telling Kenichi to protect her. Because Ham Egg's daughter is Adapted Out, no excuse this time.
Freudian Excuse? Mitigating Factors?
None. Ham Egg is a greedy and callous sadist through and through. Though we see him at the start of the film broke and desperate for money, it doesn't come nowhere near as close to warranting any sympathy for him, and he arguably deserves it considering what he does.
Even towards his so-called "friends", Ham Egg simply treats them as collateral. He shows no concern for their safety even as their numbers drop one by one, simply smugly saying that it was their own incompetence that got them killed. When they run low on food and supplies, Ham Egg simply forces them to eat roots instead of returning back and wait for more supplies to be delivered, eager to get rich as soon as possible.
Conclusion?
Greedy and sadistic, I'd say that Ham Egg qualifies.
The film is surprisingly pretty dark and tragic, despite its pretty animation that gives it the impression that it looks kid friendly. Even Kimba himself ends up dying, leaving the film as a Bittersweet Ending.
As for Ham Egg himself, despite how silly his name is, doesn't really have any comedic qualities. All his vile actions are played seriously.
I don't think he does. But even if he knows, I doubt he would care. He had no qualms killing a human like Mr Lemonade, so sentient or not, he would still probably kill them just to make a quick buck.
Edited by hittheassassin on Aug 10th 2019 at 4:08:53 PM
@Delphine Hey we got several C Ms with silly names up (Hello Totopepe, Glemmy Toto, Chicken Wing, Ringmaster Jesus and Opal Koboi) so no issue here.
That being said, probably leaning yea with Ham Egg. Need to re-read the EP if he's aware if the animals are sentient or not.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 10th 2019 at 3:02:05 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."In that case, I guess I'll give a
for Green Eggs and Ham.
I know, but I wanted to certain; that's why I asked instead of just saying no.
Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Aug 10th 2019 at 1:04:11 AM
RIP KissAnime.I added my write up to the drafts and contacted that troper to see if she could offer any insight to the games, so I just have to wait for a response.
I've been wondering about Kimba for a while. I was thinking about seeing if anyone from it qualified, particularly Claw, who Scar would be the expy of. Does anyone count from the anime itself?
jjjSure to Ham Egg.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
to Eggy
And
to Mary. Sounds like Textbook "Word of God says they have mitigating quality but it isn't shown in the work" situation
Well to be fair, other translations has him named Viper Snakely, which does sound better than a name like Ham Egg.
