During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
It also helps us decipher what is considered canon or not, that way we can see what goes and what stays on a villains rapsheet. For example, apparently George Lucas never considered Star Wars Legends and the Old EU to actually be canon.
Although condridictory creator statements can make it complicated. For example, the Halloween franchise is such a cluster of what different creators consider canon - I can't explain it all at once, but the ultimate consensus for fans and creators is that it's "Choose Your Own Adventure."
Edited by Beast on Aug 4th 2019 at 5:55:01 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
@Julayla 64: No, Word of God is irrelevant to CM. Word of God can say Toffee is the most evil character in fiction but if what is shown onscreen is just basic villainy than he can't count.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aside from word of God, Here's the thing, the fact wether Tofee is pure evil wasn't quite the issue. It was the Fact he was out heinoused by Charachters like Solaria or Mina.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ch'rell, Draek, Ch'rell, Vuhom and Hierem
Toffee's case is just confusing. First Daron claims he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist, now this? Is she purposefully fucking with us?
Edited by Keshali on Aug 4th 2019 at 4:40:48 AM
I know. It feels like she was completely contradicting herself when she said that.
EDIT: Either she's lying about Toffee ever being a Well-Intentioned Extremist in the first place or she's just making up stuff as she goes and completely forgot her original ideas.
Edited by Julayla64 on Aug 5th 2019 at 1:23:53 PM
Anyways keeping tabs of what I promised to do. Feel free to step in yourselves:
- Third Doom Patrol proposition (spoilers: its the Archon of the Cult of the Unwritten Book)
- Shuriki
- Other Oceanian sun goddesses.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I'll play... Can you tell me who Shuriki is
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
The bad witch from Elena of Avalor.
Well, lets get a third of the promises done with. This one comes from Melanesian mythology, specifically Woodlark Island; sources are The Mythology of All Races ("Oceanic") and Encyclopedia of Goddesses and Heroines.
Who is she
The Sun Goddess in Woodlark Island myth is an old woman who keeps the fire to herself, starving most of the people in the world as they couldn't use it to cook. Her own son begged for her to share fire, citing that uncooked taro was tearing blood out of people's throats, but she didn't care. To save everyone he stole fire from her, which prompted her to make a hissy fit and throw the fire into the sky, forming the sun and moon, as means to spite people with heat and blindness.
Heinous Standard
Pretty sociopathic, what with starving people and not caring that they are bleeding to death, then throwing a petty hisy fit because her son dare to be a decent god/human being.
Mitigating Standards
Not even love for her son, so no.
Veredict
?
Edited by Keshali on Aug 4th 2019 at 5:52:59 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's not very informative.
Lizzid people!
That's...really short.
Gentle Laborer
Echoing Delphine and Austin...
Well yes, the myth description is pretty short. However, I think the basic points have come across: she's allowing people to starve and mutilate themselves out of pure selfishness, then throws a temper tantrum and punishes people.
How short is it? If it's too barebones, we can't include her.
I thought sharks were my friends.
I'm voting ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
then.
"The Sun Goddess in Woodlark Island myth is an old woman who keeps the fire to herself, starving most of the people in the world. Her own son begged for her to share fire, citing that taro was tearing blood out of people's throats, but she didn't care. To these ends he stole fire from her, which prompted her to make a hissy fit and throw the fire into the sky, forming the sun and moon, as means to spite people with heat and blindness."
I personally don't think this is barebones. Short maybe, but not barebones. It shows the problem and the character's motivations and actions.
I thought sharks were my friends.
What the heck does "keeps the fire to herself" even mean? Context is important.
As in, keeping all the fire of the world to herself, not sharing it for others to cook. Thought it was pretty clear.
Edited by Keshali on Aug 4th 2019 at 5:46:20 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
It wasn't.
I digress, especially since there's literally no other way to construct that with starvation and uncooked taros making people bleed to death are parts of the problem.
@Keshali: The problem is that it doesn't seem like there's much of an actual story; a vague description at best. I'm not comfortable including her with this little detail to the myth.
We have worked with else on the past, but again I digress since this has a clear narrative:
- Sun goddess is an asshole
- People starve and bleed to death
- Son begs for her to share fire
- She refuses
- Son steals fire
- Sun goddess throws a hissy fit and makes the sun and moon for the express purpose of hurting people.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Got yet another candidate.
Abstaining for the Sun Goddess.
What's the work?
Code Lyoko OverPowered (Download here; Read here) is a French-written Code Lyoko fanfiction written by Nelbsia. A "Season 5" of some sorts, it was written long before Code Lyoko Evolution, thus ignoring its events. In this sequel, XANA returns, having survived by hiding inside the supercomputer, and the Lyoko-warriors must fight him, with William, Sissi and Naxxya (an OC, who fortunately averts and defies the Mary-Su trope).
The fanfiction is complete. Nelbsia is currently planning a sequel.
That said, let's deal with our candidate.
Who is XANA? What has he done?
The Big Bad of the original series, XANA is still as evil as ever, planning to Take Over the World... No matter what.
In the first chapter, XANA, upon his return, is weakened, and pulls a The Bad Guy Wins by devirtualizing Aélita, preventing the Lyoko-warriors from halting its regain of strength.
In the third chapter, XANA hacks the Lyoko-Wristlets (which allows the Lyoko-warriors to turn into their Lyoko forms on Earth), and promptly xanatifies every Lyoko-warrior but Aélita (who didn't have her wristwatch at the moment), before sending them to kill her. Fortunately, Jérémie manages to return everyone to normal. XANA then mass-brainwashes the whole Kadic Academy, before sending them to kill the Lyoko-warriors. Aélita fortunately deactivates the tower on time. XANA tries to brainwash Naxxya, but fails.
In the fourth chapter, XANA attempts to brainwash Yumi and materialized Krabs and Tarantulas on Earth, before sending them to off the Lyoko-warriors. He fails, again.
In the fifth chapter, XANA sent Krapauds and a Megatank on Earth, to invade Kadic and tries to kill the Lyoko-warriors, not caring if any student is caught in the crossfire. He's, again, foiled.
The sixth chapter reveals that, in a Bad Future, XANA killed the Lyoko-warriors, materialized on Earth as a human, and destroyed everything on the surface of the planet. A year later, only Herb, Nicholas, Taelia, Milly, Tamiya, Johnny and Hiroki managed to survive by hiding in a factory. However, XANA also removed the devirtualization process, in which case anyone defeated on Lyoko, instead of coming back to Earth, would die, pure and simple. XANA manages to kill Taelia in a latter mission. In a mission to recover the Return to the Past protocol XANA destroyed, Tamiya, Johnny, Nicholas, Hiroki and Milly also loses their lives, the latter succeeding to sent to Herb the Return to the Past protocol. Herb promptly uses it as XANA personally invades the factory and triggers an explosion as he went back on time, killing Bad Future!XANA. He left, in the past, a CD to Jérémie, before dying.
In the seventh chapter, XANA sent on Earth the Kolossus in another mad attempt to kill the Lyoko-warriors, risking God knows how many lives in the process. It almost kills Ulrich, Odd and William, but XANA's plan is foiled in time. XANA also tries to brainwash Sissi, but she fights from the inside long enough to resist.
In the eighth chapter, XANA tries to kill the Lyoko-warriors by brainwashing the soccer team they were playing against. He fails.
In the ninth chapter, XANA lures the Lyoko-warriors to its lair, claiming to hold Franz Hopper alive but hostage. It was a fake (the real deal is indeed alive and in XANA's hand, but in another castle), and XANA takes advantage of the situation to delete the devirtualization program.
In the ninth chapter, XANA lures the Lyoko-warriors to its lair, claiming to hold Franz Hopper alive but hostage. It was a fake (the real deal is indeed alive and in XANA's hand, but in another castle), and XANA takes advantage of the situation to delete the devirtualization program.
Oh, and XANA, while using Franz Hopper's energy, leaving him in an And I Must Scream fate, and slowly draining him until he dies, also tortures him, and enjoys it clearly.
In the tenth chapter, the Lyoko-warriors returns to the XANA-base to defeat XANA for good and rescue Franz Hopper. Once there, XANA launches all its arsenal (and his human avatar) against the Lyoko-warriors. XANA kills everyone but Jérémie (who's on Earth, coordinating the mission) and Sissi (who survived by hiding in her crystal technique). It took great pleasure to do so, and even made sure Jérémie would watch at it takes Aélita's Lyoko Keys (it need them to go to Earth as an human, thus avoiding the multi-agent program) from her before killing her. Jérémie virtualizes and, since his power on Lyoko is to improve the other Lyoko-warrirors' powers, improves Sissi's. She promptly went from a healer to someone capable of resurrecting the dead. She resurrect the rest of the team, and Jérémie improves their powers. With their newfound power, they defeat XANA. Out of spite, XANA then causes the base to collapses before dying, hoping to take the Lyoko-warriors with it. It fails, thanks to the recently freed Franz Hopper.
Heinousness?
Easily sets it. Sole villain. Just as bad, if not worse than the original series. Sadist, Would Hurt a Child, Hero Killer, Would Hit a Girl, Omnicidal Maniac (even without its future self, it would have more than enough things to count). Classic, but here.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Searchin'...
...Searchin'...
...Searchin'...
Twelve eternities later...
...Searchin'...
To put it nicely : Hashenote .
Verdict ?
Easy, easy yes.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 5th 2019 at 1:50:47 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
We let Word of God help with ambiguous cases, but we won't accept a character that only does generic villainy just because the author says they think they're a CM.
An example of an ambiguous case would be The Last of Us. I haven't finished it but from what I understand David attempts to rape Ellie. This isn't entirely clear in context but Word of God reveals that was what he was doung. So we accept that.