Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Violator and Jason Wynne may be enough to make the cut.

Wynn may have had the same problem Malebolgia had, too much posturing, not enough action.

@Austin: I shortened the entry a little on the YMMV page.

Check out my fanfiction!

If nobody objects, I'll submit the Spawn examples, Jenner, Hazanko and Zadkiel to be added shortly

Majority vote for the Zodiac killer seems to be cut. I'll go request to cut him from Monster.Film, along with the Cliffhanger entries, the Interrogator, the The Fugitive entries, the Duke from Moulin Rouge!, and Miles Slade.

edited 4th Oct '13 9:25:13 PM by TVRulezAgain

I don't remember discussing the Interrogator, actually. I haven't seen the film, but being a torturer played by a torture opponent to show how bad torture is, he's bound to be pretty nasty. Rapsheet, please?

That's the problem. We don't have a rap sheet on him. The entry has no context.

edited 4th Oct '13 9:29:12 PM by TVRulezAgain

Lots of torture, including fingore and the having molested the protagonist when she was a child.

Okay I'll request the cuts sans the Interrogator.

EDIT: Alright, only 5 more entries to discuss and then Film Monsters will be ready.

edited 4th Oct '13 10:24:29 PM by TVRulezAgain

Found some ZCE examples on YMMV.Anita Blake

Now, I've never read the series, so anyone can fill in the blanks, but:

• Edward, though Anita does note even in the first book that if he says he's not going to kill her, he won't. He has no reason to lie about it.
• In fact, he's so impressed by some of the jobs they do together in the early books, he tells her someday he will come to fight to the death, just for kicks, to see who'll win. And he'll tell her when that's going to happen.
• Edward is a monster, no doubt, but as of Obsidian Butterfly, the "complete" part is more debatable considering the attachment he develops to Donna, Becca, Peter, and even Anita during the course of the novel.
• Olaf. Serial killer, enjoys blood, carnage, and torture... let's spare the details.
• Chimera the panwere. Even several books after his demise, Anita shudders at the memory of him.

But, uhh...this is from the 'squick' and 'Unfortunate implications entry'

• Squick:
  • On oh-so many accounts. One of the most noticeable ones is when Anita has sex with Jason in werewolf form in Incubus Dreams. Anita recalls that Olaf, the psychotic killer from Obsidian Butterfly who also returned in The Harlequin, allegedly masturbated in front of her with his hands covered in the blood of a dead vampire. Also when Anita gives oral sex to a random poor guy as torture and then goes crawling toward the Big Bad with her breasts hanging out covered in semen.
  • The constant descriptions of how the characters have sex as vampire and werecreature form, along with the IKEA Erotica.
  • Anita screwing a high school boy on its own was bad enough, but in Kiss The Dead it's revealed that she's been simultaneously acting as a Parental Substitute to him by attending PTA meetings.
  • In Kiss The Dead, Anita and one of her many lovers fall asleep while still positioned for intercourse. When they wake, his penis is glued inside her vagina due their body fluids adhering to the condom. Gross.
  • It seems like the series goes out if its way to make her sex life as repulsive as possible. Think about it: sex done right involves sweat and other bodily fluids. Anita is constantly having sex, often with multiple men, in times and places where post-coital clean-up just isn't possible. At one point, she has sex in her office that stained the carpet and left her sopping wet to the knees and then went right back to work. Good Lord, this woman must smell.

• Unfortunate Implications: These books just about give Twilight a run for its money.
  • To begin with, despite having a lot of sex, the series is actually pretty sex-negative.
    • Anita rarely willingly chooses to have sex - she has to be forced into it somehow. The first time Anita sleeps with Jean-Claude, she’s just undergone a trauma and is emotionally vulnerable and we all know he’s a Manipulative Bastard who'd been aggressively pursuing her for years by that point. The first time with Richard she was under a magical compulsion. Another character said outright to Richard that having sex with her now was comparable to rape. And let’s not get started on Micah, who completely ignored Anita telling him “no” several times and LKH’s insistence that this was not meant to be a rape scene. And then we get the Ardeur, which is basically a date rape drug that forces people to have sex. All that talk about how Anita is a liberated woman? Not so.
    • It gets even worse when you realize that even before the ardeur business, not a single book goes by without featuring a sexual predator of some. Even when it adds nothing to the plot, we always have to have someone being raped, molested, sexually assaulted, coerced into sex, or threatened with any of the above. There are hardly any sexual encounters that are not dubcon at best.
    • In the The Harlequin, Anita immediately dismisses the potential rape of two teenage girls as "buyer's remorse," even though she's hearing the information second hand from a third party. However, Anita regards male rape victims sympathetically.
    • Another bad rape example: in Blue Moon Richard gets accused of rape. Despite all the monstrous behavior she's seen from werewolves by now (including, at one point, Richard getting sexually aroused by a gruesome snuff porno film depicting a helpless woman devoured by weres), Anita refuses to even consider the woman's side of the story because Richard is SUCH a nice guy and would never do such a thing. We also know that she is lying because Anita does not approve of her slutty outfits. Also, it's perfectly understandable if the family of an alleged rapist might want to confront the accuser in public and threaten her. Actually, she WAS lying, but the evidence pointing to that is the same victim-blaming garbage rape survivors get in real life.
    • If you enjoy BDSM, you’re either a Complete Monster or emotionally damaged.
    • The portrayal of GLBTQ characters. Many gay male characters end up with a woman regardless. Vampire Byron has amazing sex with Anita despite being gay. Policeman Brice starts to date a female coworker as his beard with a couple chapters of admitting his sexuality to Anita. And Asher, a bisexual who prefers men to women, is demonized and shipped off for contrived reasons.
    • This quote from Laurell K. Hamilton, in which she insinuates bisexuals can't have monogamous relationships (emphasis added). (Interestingly, Hamilton is friends with fellow writer Yasmine Galenorm who is openly bisexual and also has been married for over a decade.)

—->LHK: We have a couple of the guys getting steady girlfriends in this book. In fact, Jason's friend from Blood Noir, J. J. the dancer, is visiting in Bullet. Since she's bi-sexual and Jason only has one set of parts neither he, nor she, want to be monogamous so he's still free in St. Louis, and she's still having her own social life in New York. It seems both these fun-loving, free-of commitment, people may have met their match.

• Any feminist message from the books is undermined by all other female characters being completely useless in comparison to Anita, and the continuous narration that anything remotely feminine is "weak" and "girly", and that it's better to be masculine.
  • Add to this the fact that Anita's entire life revolves around men. Her interactions with other women are always marked by hostility or jealousy. It even pre-dates the Ardeur business: you see it already with Dorcas Bouvier and Sergeant Freemont in Bloody Bones. If you're another strong-willed, independent woman, you're either a villainess or an object of Anita's disdain.
• Dominga is a voodoo priestess who also happens to be ethnically Mexican. Anita, despite being lily white, is also half-Mexican. However, she describes Dominga as "the Mexican grandmother of [her] nightmares." Furthermore, Anita's ignorance of Hispanic traditions is treated as proof that she has not succumbed to her "Latin darkness." Lastly, the practice of voodoo is primarily attributed to the Caribbean Islands or West Africa. Mexicans practice a derivative of voodoo, but it's not quite the same. It's as though the author thought that an ethnic priestess would automatically practice an ethnic magic without giving thought to the individual traditions of the ethnicity.

So. Ummm...

yeah.

Having also read the YMMV page, I say burn it. Our heroine's a racist, a rapist and an ephebophile, the entire series seems to run on Nausea Fuel, the author expresses a whole range of misandrist and misogynistic viewpoints (which takes a lot of effort to do), and there's so many double standards and so much Moral Myopia in play that making any moral judgement of the villains is virtually impossible. When the "heroine" uses magic to force a bunch of men into becoming her harem (and screwing each other for her entertainment), punishing them if they look at another woman, while banging Anything That Moves herself, it's time to conclude that moral bankruptcy on the part of the author has rendered the possibility of a CM moot.

And I hope I'm not the only one who wants to vomit after reading that stuff from the YMMV page. Latin darkness? Seriously?

EDIT: Am cutting Kevin Katchadourian.

edited 4th Oct '13 11:07:19 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Yowza. Lady could give Richard Rahl a run for his money in the Designated Hero department, sounds like. Like Ambar said, there seem to be works where everyone is so morally bankrupt you begin to suspect moral bankruptcy on the creators' part, too.

the only thing I could justify keeping are the Marvel comics because obviously it's a ifferent 'verse and world entirely.

I say burn those Anita Blake examples. And the books. How did the author make something more screwed up than the Sword Of Truth?

edited 4th Oct '13 11:08:22 PM by TommyFresh

Unless you've read the comics, I say burn it too. If someone wants to come and explain to us how it's different they can, but for now, axe it.

Have asked that Kevin's entry on the lit subpage be cut. The current entry on the YMMV page just says that the novel is dedicated to exploring whether he qualifies. Should we leave that one alone?

By being a deeply repulsive human being who thinks dicks getting glued into vaginas, mother-figure-on-son sex, and woman-on-man-rape is hot?

edited 4th Oct '13 11:12:19 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Yeah I hates me some Anite Blake, so maybe this exampl will be easier to stomach. The Secret Life of the American Teenager

• Complete Monster: Ricky's dad - Bob Underwood. This "man" physically abused his son and would aslo sexually abuse him for years. He also beat his wife, one time it is said by Nora that Bob had broken her ribs, at one point.

Well...sounds like a possibility but that example...

Right, hopefully someone who has watched the show can confirm this.

Anite Blake, we still keeping the Senora?

Also, for Literature, should we snip that last sentence from the Trunchbull's entry (Matilda)?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I submitted the Scream examples to the edit request thread.

There were some discussions on The Shawshank Redemption throughout the thread, but no action has been taken yet for the YMMV page. What was the last concensus?

Natural Born Killers also lists characters I believe were deemed cuts.

Perfume has this example:

• Complete Monster: Grenouille himself. As far as it shows, none of the people who ever took him in taught him much of morality or life value. He was sold as a slave, his own mother tried leaving him for dead underneath a fish tent, every kid in the orphanage hated and feared him and that the only guy who took actual care of him just wanted to use his talents for himself, and none of them ever tutored him for anything but work. He knows only the realm of scents and grieves only for the loss of it, as with the Plum Girl. He was never taught the value of life or love.
  • As implied in the book, he can't be loved because his lack of a natural scent is what causes people to hate him, fear him or see him as a sub-human. In one way he's the olfactory Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Having read the book I'd argue for this character's disqualification since Grenouille is a misantropic loner lacking empathy and any grasp of morality instead of being a sadistic monster who revels in his heinousness, but even the description here is bad. Rather than recounting crimes it reads more like an entry for Freudian Excuse.

edited 5th Oct '13 4:26:36 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Here's a potential rewrite for Trunchbull from Maltida.

• Agatha Trunchbull from Roald Dahl's Matilda, the ultimate Sadist Teacher. Shying away from illegal caning, she instead resorts to even worse measures that parents are more likely to dismiss as wild stories. Some of these measures involve throwing children vast distances including out of high windows, and putting them in a torture chamber called "the Chokey", all of which nearly kill the children involved. It's hinted that she murdered her brother-in-law to get his estate and abuse his daughter.

edited 5th Oct '13 5:22:36 AM by randomtroper89

May I have permission to add this writeup of this character from the Higanbana ymmv page to the anime and manga section? It should also be noted that he contemplated doing the same to the children he thought were coming into the old bathroom as he did with Marie.

edited 5th Oct '13 6:13:21 AM by AustinDR

The writeup on the YMMV page?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Yeah, Another Duck rewrote it.

OK, however, is the Lolicon cite described correctly?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman