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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#17526: Oct 4th 2013 at 9:15:31 AM

Can we please continue looking at the three works in my sig?

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#17527: Oct 4th 2013 at 10:53:37 AM

Sup dudes. So just to be sure, it's official now that we don't include Todd, yeah?

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#17528: Oct 4th 2013 at 11:07:56 AM

I think so.

Also, I have to say that I think I'm against Jack's inclusion as well. He seems too genuinely Affably Evil (Aryan Nation affiliation notwithstanding) and has a sort of "code of honor" in his business dealings.

More importantly though as I see it- its like Todd does various evil stuff which is enabled by Jack and the rest of the gang, in addition to the fact that most of Todd and Jack's evil actions are enabled by Lydia and/or Walt.

I do agree that Todd and Jack are presented as evil to a degree that makes Walt look good in comparison. However, it still feels to me like there so much "enabling" going on that I wouldn't keep either of them.

[down] Don't get me wrong, I can see why Jack could count.

edited 4th Oct '13 11:38:17 AM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17529: Oct 4th 2013 at 11:24:12 AM

Yeah, Todd right now is either tied or beaten in votes. Jack is almost unanimously a solid keep by over 10 votes hence his addition

Mzark Since: Sep, 2013
#17530: Oct 4th 2013 at 3:50:56 PM

Hey, I'd just like to chime in for a second.

Shouldn't every Complete Monster theoretically be on the same rung? Like if they're all irredeemably evil, they should be the same kind of being, right?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17531: Oct 4th 2013 at 3:58:17 PM

[up] We do take the villain's resources into account. A street gang leader and a Fascist dictator can both qualify, as long as they're as bad as they can be in their respective positions.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17532: Oct 4th 2013 at 4:11:18 PM

We also take the work into account. A horrible torturer and murderer would be heinous in a work where he's the only villain. He'd be downright mundane in Warhammer 40,000.

There are also different typesof evil. An Omnicidal Maniac type would be at odds with a Dystopia Justifies the Means tyrant whose philosophy is It's All About Me and a Serial Killer and cannibal might be content to lay low on his own

edited 4th Oct '13 4:15:51 PM by Lightysnake

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17533: Oct 4th 2013 at 4:40:16 PM

On the When They Cry page, should we add this person listed on the Higanbana No Saku Yoru Ni? The visual novel was created by the same studio that did Higurashi and Umineko and was also written by the same author. It is not an official addition to the franchise, so do you think we should put a subtitle that says other works?

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#17534: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:11:30 PM

[up]Fits on Monster.Anime And Manga. Even if it has a similar phrasing as the two others.

edited 4th Oct '13 5:12:48 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#17536: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:17:50 PM

Might also want to shorten it a bit, and perhaps mention the bit about him contemplating killing others because they might get in the way. I don't remember exactly how it was, though.

edited 4th Oct '13 5:18:04 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17537: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:22:08 PM

Like shorten it how?

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#17538: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:26:12 PM

I think I have a rough draft write up for Billy Kincaid:

"Billy Kincaid was a sadistic child killer in life. He lured a small girl into his ice cream truck and then murdered her. He then proceeded to to chop off the girl's fingers and glue them onto a board. After Spawn discovered Kincaid's brutal crimes, he murdered Kincaid and sent his soul to Hell. Kincaid later returned as a ghost, given the task by Hell to gather more souls for them. Kincaid did this by possessing people and making them act out their worse impulses. This resulted in the murder of dozens of innocent people and the damnation of several more people to Hell, though Kincaid did not care, he was having a lot of fun murdering people and collecting souls. Both in life and in death Billy Kincaid was a cruel and sadistic monster."

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17539: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:44:05 PM

needs tweaking but a very good start

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17540: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:50:30 PM

Okay, how about this rewrite for Kanamori? Yoshihito Kanamori, from Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni, is a dark, twisted version of the typical Lolicon you would normally see in anime in that his actions aren't Played for Laughs and that he is portrayed as a disturbed individual in-universe. Kanamori started off as the home room teacher of the protagonist Marie Moriya. He was her defender whenever the bullies tried to harass her. However, due to the stress of his job, he turns and starts to take his stress out on Marie and molest her in what he calls "supplementary lessons." When Marie threatened to turn him in to the local police, he strangles her to death and sings her a song while doing so. When the deed was done, he thought he heard children coming into the old bathroom and contemplates on whether or not to do the same to them as he did with Marie. He then disposed of the corpse in the sewers, and soon began to believe himself to be Mesomeso and believed he got away with the perfect crime. He is soon thrown into conflict with the spirit of Marie over the title of Mesomeso. He hears Marie weeping in one of the bathroom stalls and gives her a long “The Reason You Suck” Speech about how she didn't have the nerve to call the police when she was alive. He opens the door and strangles her a second time and rapes the remains. Karma then hits him when he fails the tests regarding Mesomeso and Marie wins by default. Marie then takes her vengeance on him and gives him a very gruesome death. He is never heard from again from the students or the teachers. How's this?

edited 4th Oct '13 6:10:35 PM by AustinDR

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#17541: Oct 4th 2013 at 5:54:34 PM

It is a rough draft, if anyone has suggestions on improving it, I am open to them.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17542: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:24:10 PM

Just as a head's up, I really think Caribou will need to go from the One Piece page soon, because like I expected he finally did something idealistic in his side-story. I'm comfortable waiting for the end of it before the actual discussion begins (should only be a week or two), but I thought I'd just give notice.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17543: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:24:23 PM

[up] I quite agree. Caribou needs to go soon. Btw, HT, think we may end putting Kaido on the list?

Here's a tweaked one for Kincaid

  • In life, Billy Kincaid of Spawn was a sadistic child killer. After being freed from jail He lured a small girl into his ice cream truck and then murdered her. He then proceeded to to chop off the girl's fingers and glue them onto a board as a trophy. After Spawn discovered Kincaid's brutal crimes, he killed Kincaid, sending him to hell. Dead, Kincaid became even worse than ever, given the task by Hell to gather more souls for them. Kincaid did this by possessing people and making them act out their worse impulses. This resulted in the murder of dozens of innocent people and the damnation of several more people to Hell, though Kincaid was having far too much fun to care. Kincaid also delighted in torturing the souls of children, especially one young boy part of the 'legion' inside of Spawn himself.

edited 4th Oct '13 6:25:21 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17544: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:29:29 PM

[up] I'd honestly bet on the Five Elders before Kaido. We know nothing Kaido's crimes at the moment save butchering Moriah's crew, and we don't know why he did that; apparently there are some translations that imply he was trying to teach Moriah the same lesson Moriah tried to teach Luffy (and which Luffy really should've heeded in retrospect), namely, that he's not ready for the New World.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17545: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:31:27 PM

Given how terrified everyone seems to be of Kaido, his power play on Whitebeard an the sheer jerkass things ascribed to him thus far, I'm betting on him being the worst of the lot of the Four emperors

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17546: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:33:10 PM

[up] Oh, most likely. Newgate and Shanks are good guys (at least I think Shanks is; that Psychotic Smirk he was wearing in that one recent colorspread has some people wondering), and Teach and Linlin at least have honor (Teach also has a Freudian Excuse implied in the SBS), but we've gotten zero idealistic traits from Kaido.

The Five Elders are the "future addition" I'm most confident in, though, which may raise some questions about whether five is too many to escape the group clause, assuming none of them assumes a leader role among them. I get the distinct impression that they're the only ones who know the real story of the World Government (maybe Doflamingo as well) and all its other employees, including Sakazuki, have drank the proverbial Kool-aid.

edited 4th Oct '13 6:43:28 PM by HamburgerTime

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#17547: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:50:44 PM

That seems like a good write up for Kincaid.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17548: Oct 4th 2013 at 6:59:35 PM

Here's one for Mammon

  • Mammon operates as The Man Behind the Man to the devil Malebolgia. a Fallen Angel known as the lord of The Forgotten Ones, Mammon desired to create the perfect Hellspawn to assist him in ascending to rulership of all creation. To this end, Mammon haunted the bloodlines of Al Simmons and Wanda Blake, sowing death and destruction to create more Hellspawn and always leaving corpses and ruined lives in his wake. Mammon proves himself to be Spawn's greatest, most intelligent and most dangerous enemy, condemning the souls Spawn would seek to protect to hell to use them as leverage for their loved ones, and making deals to consolidate his power. When Satan returns and is furious at Mammon for claiming the throne, Mammon gets back in his former master's good graces by proposing to detonate the San Andreas Fault to kill and add the souls of many mortals to Hell's legions. After Satan is removed, Mammon unveils his master stroke- with heaven and hell sealed off from the world, Mammon sets about to conquer it from behind the scenes with Spawn's demonic daughter Morana, the product of his grand ambition.

edited 4th Oct '13 7:49:54 PM by Lightysnake

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#17549: Oct 4th 2013 at 7:10:27 PM

That seems like a good write up for Mammon. Are there any other Spawn villains vile enough to be Complete Monsters or are these two the ones who make the grade?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17550: Oct 4th 2013 at 7:46:47 PM

[up][up] I'd strike the mention of Bigger Bad there, because that's not the right trope: a Bigger Bad is by definition not involved in the plot. Mammon is, so he's just The Man Behind the Man.


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