During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Occasional Exister PM'd me to say that he supports the Hidan write-up and cutting Kevin. If people would rather wait until he gets back (he's out sick) and ask him for his votes in person, I completely understand that.
Regardless, I think we have enough votes to swap out the Hidan rewrite and are at least getting very close to being able to cut Kevin.
Which brings me to a question—since one of the points of We Need To Talk About Kevin is exploring whether Kevin is completely without redeeming qualities (with the eventual answer being an ambiguous no) should there still be a comment on its YMMV page to that effect? While Kevin himself is probably not a Complete Monster, the novel as a whole is devoted to the concept of a CM, meaning that the trope is in play and being discussed, even though the character is ultimately revealed to have good qualities. It strikes me that this is one of the rare cases where some sort of note on the YMMV page is worth doing (the entry on the subpage can, of course, be cut).
edited 3rd Oct '13 12:29:43 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Guys, should we move the film Rurouni Kenshin examplesto Monster.Rurouni Kenshin?
edited 3rd Oct '13 2:26:02 PM by Lightysnake
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I also support cutting Kevin. He does seem to have potential good qualities.
I don't think that leaving a note on the YMMV page is a good idea though. While I think that it would be justified in this particular case it would likely just create a loophole for people wanting to attach the CM title to characters that don't fit the criteria.
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I third that, and suggest moving the The Witcher examples to Monster.The Witcher.
EDIT: Here's the sandboxes for The Witcher and Rurouni Kenshin.
edited 3rd Oct '13 3:21:54 PM by randomtroper89
Okay most sources seem to call Savage Messiah a biographical drama, so Roch can probably stay. However, the current entry makes too many real-life references:
- Savage Messiah, a Canadian film based on a real-life story, has one of these as a main character. The man, Roch "Moses" Thériault
, is an utter sociopath who nevertheless has a harem of wives and children all begging to him because he is Affably Evil. The Dissonant Serenity when he casually dismembers one of his wives is eerie. Roch abuses all the members of his cult in horrific ways (Abusive Parents doesn't even begin to define it) and yet gets away with it because he is just that manipulative. And he convinces the third-party researchers that come to view his cult that he's innocent.
A few writeups and rewrites
Victor Branco is on the Video Game page, and he deserves an expansion. He's the big bad of the third Max Payne game and...well, this speaks for itself...
- Victor Branco in the third game. has both of his brothers assassinated— one by burning him alive—in order to secure his personal wealth and political future, all while heading the mass-harvest of the poor and criminals for their organs.
Here's the rewrite
- Victor Branco, Sleazy Politician and The Man Behind the Man in the third Max Payne game recruits Max himself as a fall guy for his criminal enterprises. In his plan to seize control of the family fortune and garner sympathy for elections, Victor has his own brothers murdered, one by being burned alive and max soon discovers the extent of his evil: Victor runs a secret ring where the poor of Brazil are kidnapped, held hostage and are harvested of all their organs for the black market organ trade.
If he qualifies, here's one for Jenner.
- Jenner, the Big Bad of The Secret of NIMH is a nasty, murderous piece of work. In contrast to his noble brethren amongst the rats of NIMH, Jenner desires nothing but power. When The Hero Mrs. Brisby comes to the rats for help moving her family and house to be safe from a farmer's plow, Jenner sabotages the moving so the wise and kind leader of the rats, Nicodemus is crushed to death, while the Brisby house (and the four Brisby children inside) are trapped and sinking in mud with Jenner not caring about the impending deaths of the kids. When he sees Nicodemus bequeathed a special stone to Mrs. Brisby, Jenner attempts to murder her for it. What makes it even worse is Jenner, like all the rats, owes his very life to Mrs. Brisby's deceased husband and the father of her kids and displays zero remorse or gratitude to Jonathan's memory. After his henchman Sullivan finally has enough with Jenner's lunacy, Jenner slashes his throat and attempts to kill his rival Justin, declaring his only philosophy in life: take what you can when you can.
One other entry I want to propose with a writeup, and one of the worst of Ghost Rider's foes: the evil angel Zadkiel.
- Zadkiel, the Arch-Enemy of Ghost Rider in the Jason Aaron series is a truly monstrous excuse for an angel. The lord of the Black Host], Zadkiel was also the angel in charge of the Spirits of Vengeance and began to desire to use them to overthrow both God and humanity. Zadkiel subtly influenced the lives of Johnny Blaze and Dan Ketch, destroying those close to them to make them vulnerable to the Ghost Rider spirits. Zadkiel as The Man Behind the Man negotiated multiple deals with demons and other monsters on earth, allowing them to prey upon those they wished, while directing his other minions to murder multiple innocents in addition to those who could prove problematic- and everyone close to them as well. Even death brought no respite as Zadkiel showed a penchant for annihilating the souls of his defeated enemies. While manipulating Danny Ketch, Zadkiel showed no remorse slaughtering and torturing his angelic brethren until he finally had the powers of the Riders and banished Ketch and Blaze to earth to die in the apocalypse he would create. Zadkiel succeeded in conquering heaven and began to achieve omnipotence with his final goal to become the new God and then commence genocide on all of humanity and all other beings who didn't worship him.
another good keeper with a bad entry from YMMV.Outlaw Star
- Hazanko. Not only kills Harry Mac Dougal in a way that even Toonami had to not show it, he plays questions both Melfina and Gene about their purpose in a way that makes it out that he (Gene) was just using her and she was a just a tool to him, and finally merges with his ship once he gets all the power he needs, causing his crew to dissolve (in the original but its Lamp Shaded so much) and becomes an obviously Ax Crazy, Nightmare Fuel Eldritch Abomination with Omnicidal Maniac tendencies. Also he has no guilt about his men's deaths and killing everyone without remorse.
Here's a rewrite:
- Hazanko of Outlaw Star is high ranking member of the Kei Pirates, right behind their two supreme rulers in terms of power and authority. Not satisfied, Hazanko schemes to overthrow his masters and rule over the Galaxy. Hazanko governs the assassin squad, the Anten Seven and routinely uses them to slaughter whoever he deems a potential threat with little care to collateral damage. When he encounters the heroes, Hazanko gruesomely kills Harry Macdougal, one of the rivals of the Outlaw Star crew and proceeds to mentally torture The Hero Gene Starwind and his Robot Girl beloved Melfina. After an initial defeat, Hazako merges with his own ship, gaining power by devouring his crew and becomes an incredibly powerful being with Omnicidal Maniac inclinations, planning to aim far further than just his erstwhile masters in who he intends to slaughter and conquer.
edited 3rd Oct '13 5:30:40 PM by Lightysnake
About Criminal Minds, there seem to be a few other entries that haven't been rewritten. I'd like to cast my votes on them now.
Holcombe can stay. He's easily the worst torturer in the series, and seems to be motivated by nothing other than classism. Stanworth should go. I'm pretty sure the actual murders, apart from his accomplice, are offscreen, and frankly I always thought that the protagonist of the episode, the guy he framed, was something of a Designated Hero. Allen and Preston both stay. Easily the most terrifying villains in season seven, which is saying a lot. Incidentally, why was Malcolm Ford cut? Not heinous enough?
edited 3rd Oct '13 6:40:34 PM by HamburgerTime
How's this rewrite?
- Savage Messiah, a Canadian film portrays Roch "Moses" Thériault as an utter sociopath who nevertheless has a harem of wives and children all begging to him. The Dissonant Serenity when he casually dismembers one of his wives is eerie. Roch abuses all the members of his cult in horrific ways (Abusive Parents doesn't even begin to define it) and yet gets away with it because he is just that manipulative. And he convinces the third-party researchers that come to view his cult that he's innocent.
Great. Added it to the film sandbox.
Okay what should we do with the Cliffhanger entries?
- Qualen from Cliffhanger has no problems killing innocent people to further his goals (which he does several times) and then coolly murders his lover so that he'll be the only available pilot.
- Delmar could be considered EVEN WORSE then Qualen himself - he shoots poor Frank dead for apparently no reason - probably for pure sadism - and then tortures Hal using him as a football in order to practice his kicking technique.
- Kynette is probably the WORST character in the film. He is a martial-artist who dispassionately guns down a helpless teenage boy for just having seen his face. This allows us to cheer when Sylvester Stallone shoves his heart into a stalagmite.
Okay, I don't know if any of them qualify, but if they do, they need a rewrite.
edited 3rd Oct '13 10:12:10 PM by TVRulezAgain
Okay now how about Miles Slade from The Tournament? His Film entry doesn't explain anything, but here's the YMMV entry:
- Definitely Miles Slade. The first thing we see him do is shoot a dog. He also collects the fingers of his victims as trophies and tied Joshua up and teased him with the fact that he isn't the true murderer of his wife and that he will never find said murderer.
Okay, for the remaining Film examples, it sounds like we should cut the Cliffhanger entries, the Interrogator, the The Fugitive entries, the Duke from Moulin Rouge!, and Miles Slade.
That leaves us with:
- Eddie "Chaos" Cooper: needs a rewrite.
- Victor Frankenstein from The Curse of Frankenstein: maybe but needs expansion
- Sylvia Ganush: ehh.. I really don't know
- General Mapache: Personally I vote cut.
- The Zodiac Killer: So far we have 2 votes cut and 2 votes keep.
edited 3rd Oct '13 10:38:51 PM by TVRulezAgain
Just found this on YMMV.Gummo (oddly enough, TV Rulez, according to the page's edit history, you're the one who added this entry, presumably by moving it from the main page):
- Complete Monster: Solomon describes his companion Tummler: "Some say he's pure evil. He has a marvelous persona He's got what it takes to be a legend." Whether Tummler really is this is largely up to the audience.
Never seen the film, but if it's "largely up to the audience" whether or not he qualifies, that seems rather shaky. The entry's case in favour mostly seems to be the remark that "Some say he's pure evil." (And that he once shut down the American government so he could turn doughnuts in the rotunda of the Capitol. All we know is, he's called the Stig!)
It's not quite a Zero Context Example, but should it be cut anyway with a note to editors to discuss Tummler here if they think he qualifies?

If no one objects I'll add Lil' Zé, Duxton Chevalier, Nurse Ratched, Sgt. Bob Barnes, and Uncle Bart to the Film Sandbox.
edited 3rd Oct '13 12:06:06 PM by TVRulezAgain