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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#175076: Jul 29th 2019 at 10:07:39 PM

For me I always use The Autarch as the measurement for villains with many resources, Original!Brian Irons for villains with low resources and Von Karma for villains who count through sheer cruelty rather than scope.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#175077: Jul 29th 2019 at 10:58:21 PM

@IúkaSylvie For me, it's hard to pick between Wrecker (from Minecraft Endventures, has no page here yet) and The Doctor

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
PureGrainAlkaSeltzer The Lord Of Walruses from 1200 Pennsylvania Ave Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
The Lord Of Walruses
#175078: Jul 29th 2019 at 11:27:34 PM

[tup] to everyone from Benjamin Raymond to here

I have no idea what I am doing
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#175079: Jul 29th 2019 at 11:33:00 PM

My baseline for a Complete Monster would have to be Judge Frollo. Selfish, indifferent to the suffering of others, and refuses to accept responsibility for his actions.

RIP KissAnime.
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#175080: Jul 30th 2019 at 12:14:59 AM

[tup] music baddies, Spacek and Crainiac.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#175081: Jul 30th 2019 at 12:59:41 AM

Hey, on the RWBY YMMV, Any chance we could reverse Adam and Cinders Entries?

Adam was added second, but he is actually introduced before Cinder, he appeared In the "Black Trailer" which showed Blake's Origin leading up to the Show. Whereas Cinder appeared in the first episode of the Show Proper.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#175082: Jul 30th 2019 at 1:00:20 AM

Karibunote , Delphine !

Too much gratuitous shikomori...

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Keshali Since: Jul, 2019
Nathanoraptor Since: Oct, 2010
#175084: Jul 30th 2019 at 2:30:29 AM

Here's an EP for a fanfic CM

What's the work? Dinosaur King Retold is sort of a remake of the anime of the same name, with the heroic D-Team trying to stop the evil Alpha Gang from retrieving all the dinosaurs.

However, there are a few critical differences; firstly, the three dinosaurs who served the Alpha Gang in the anime (Terry, Spiny and Tank) are with the D-team here. Secondly, the dinosaurs are entirely sapient and can talk to humans; some characters have also had their genders changed, but that’s neither here nor there. Thirdly, Spectre and his crew are heroic characters here. Finally, one of the villains has some Adaptational Villainy going on and is my candidate.

Who is he? What does he do?

Seth is a high-ranking member of the Alpha Gang, who, whilst initially being a supporting antagonist, eventually becomes the Dragon-in-Chief of Season One. Unlike in the series, he’s Rex’s uncle; he also loses his anime counterpart’s nobler traits.

Initially, Seth was assistant to his brother Dr. Ancient and Ancient's wife Dr. Cretacia. One day, Ancient and Cretacia find the lithograph that contains the dinosaurs' message. Planning to save the dinosaurs, Ancient recruits Seth and the future Alpha Gang members to help him build a time machine; shortly after they leave, they meet the Spectral Space Pirates, who agree to help them.

The Ancients begin saving dinosaurs, with the Pirates' help. It is at this point that Ancient finds out about the Dinosaur King and the dinosaurs choose Ancient to lead them. Seth and Z don't like this one bit. Whilst Z openly plots against Ancient (making Move Cards and Secret Dinosaurs), Seth steals technology from the Pirates' ship to revive three dinosaur skeletons; Gigas, Armatus and Maximus. Ancient is enraged and, despite letting his creations live, forbids Seth from creating any more.

Shortly after this, Seth comes to Dr. Z, who is paranoid that he will be booted off the team when they return to the future (this isn't true; Ancient and Cretacia wanted to return to the future so she could have Rex), and the future Alpha Gang, with a plan for a mutiny; firstly, they sabotage the Backland, stranding them in the past. When the Backland's repaired, Seth and Z move into the next stage of their plan; kill the Ancients and take the dinosaurs and the time machine for themselves.

Whilst everyone's in stasis, Seth and Dr. Z take over the Backland; Seth ordering Z to kill Cretacia (he manages to injure her so severely, she's rendered comatose) whilst he murders Ancient by his own hand. However, he's stopped from murdering his infant nephew by Jonathan, Ancient's loyal android butler, who manages to eject both himself and Rex into the time vortex to save him. Seth also manages to severely injure Spectre, forcing him to hibernate to heal his wounds. The resulting explosion also scatters both the stones and all the dinosaurs across time.

A year later (from their perspective), the Alpha Gang set up shop on present-day Earth and plan to retrieve all the dinosaurs; Seth continues working his own agenda in the background. Finding a card containing three Velociraptors in Australia, Seth puts them through agonising experiments to make them more powerful, utterly uncaring of the suffering they have to go through.

The D-Team first face him directly when he joins the Alpha Gang Terrible Trio in refining a sample of Alpha Metal at an ironworks the D-Team are at. Holding Terry's card (and the D-Team's classmates and teacher) hostage, Seth manipulates Max into putting the Alpha Metal sample in the ironworks' furnace. What Seth neglects to tell him is that is what he wanted all along; he plans to send a capsule of Dinomond power into the blast furnace to refine the Alpha Metal into its purest form. What Seth also neglects, until the very last second, to tell Max is that this will lead to a massive explosion; the D-Team and their friends barely escape alive.

After this, Seth begins plotting behind Dr. Z's back, manipulating Rod and Laura, Dr. Z's grandchildren, into capturing dinosaurs for him; one such dinosaur is Torch the Saurophaganax. Manipulating Torch into his service, Seth secretly begins experimenting on him, using him as a guinea pig for a new Move Card; experiments that would eventually kill Torch. Not that Seth cares. Seth, seeing potential in Pyro (an incredibly powerful Opposite-Sex Clone of the D-Team's Acrocanthosaurus), secretly has him revived and sways him to his side, with a promise of being his second-in-command. When Helga, Dr. Z's loyal Robot Maid, finds out about Seth's scheming and attempts to put an end to it, Seth personally destroys her (she gets better).

The D-Team face Seth directly again in Russia, where he reveals his true goals; to create an army of hyper-evolved dinosaurs, which he will use to conquer the world... even though that will almost certainly mean the destruction of human civilisation. Immediately following this, he has Torch attempt to murder the D-Team, using his Move Card; the D-Team are only saved by Guru the Ampelosaurus. However, Seth, once again, escapes.

Secretly stealing DNA samples from some of the D-Team's dinosaurs, Seth uses the Dinomond to create clones that are both more powerful than their originals, far more vicious and unquestionably loyal to him. To test them out (and draw the D-Team out for a showdown), Seth leads the Alpha Gang in an invasion of Sanjo City (the D-Team's home town), taking its entire population hostage. Seth orders the prisoners executed out of pure spite; he is only stopped by the D-Team interfering. Seth, enraged, orders his army to kill all of the D-Team's dinosaurs.

After the battle starts going south, Seth is cornered by Rex on the roof of a building. However, Rex chooses to spare his treacherous uncle; Seth, being the Ungrateful Bastard he is, pretends to surrender and attempts to kill his nephew. Rex only barely survives by managing to push Seth off the roof of a building. Surviving the fall, but with a broken arm, Seth is greeted by his Velociraptors who, tired of his abuse, rip him to shreds, ending his life once and for all.

Freudian Excuse or mitigating qualities?

None. Dr. Z has redeeming qualities, appearing to care about his minions (in a very twisted way), despite frequently abusing and denigrating them. There are also moments where it seems he sincerely cannot fathom what he’s doing is wrong (e.g. he can’t understand why his Bad Boss tendencies would cause his minions to turn on him); I’m not sure whether that qualifies as an agency issue.

Pyro (Seth’s Dragon) has both moral agency issues, as he was subject to a great deal of mental conditioning, and redeeming qualities, since the author has confirmed that he genuinely regarded Seth as a friend and mourned his death. Bronitkens pets as many dogs as he kicks and has a tragic backstory that keeps him sympathetic, whilst the Alpha Gang rank-and-file (Brontikens included) appear to have a genuine Villainous Friendship with each other and show, repeatedly, that they have standards.

Seth, on the other hand, has no redeeming features. He’s polite to his colleagues, yes… however, it’s all an act to keep them on his side. In reality, he only sees them as pawns; he is willing to manipulate, torture and brainwash them for his own benefit and has no qualms about disposing of them when they cease to be useful, they get in his way, or simply because it benefits him to do so.

And whilst he may seem loyal to Dr. Z, it’s clear that Seth simply sees him as a pawn and plans on betraying him as well; any loyalty he shows to Dr. Z is a façade. The sole display of honour he shows is a trick to lull Max into a false sense of security; immediately after that, he leaves the D-Team and a busload of innocents to die. The author has also confirmed that Seth was always planning on killing his brother; the whole situation just gave him an opportunity.

Heinousness

Now, this is hard to quantify; Seth spends most of the story at Zeta Point and only really starts playing an active role from Chapter 37 onwards. However, after this point, he proves himself a much bigger threat than any of the other antagonists; he is far more ruthless and deadly than the other villains and both times the heroes directly face him, they nearly die. Also, he started off the story having murdered his brother and attempted to kill his sister-in-law and infant nephew; in the present day, he knowingly attempts to kill said nephew on multiple occasions.

Not even his own allies are safe; when Helga becomes an obstacle to his plans, he attempts to have her destroyed. His torturous experiments on the Velociraptors and manipulating Torch into becoming his guinea pig (utterly uncaring that the tests will eventually kill him) are made even worse by the fact the dinosaurs are sapient and he is well aware of that fact.

He also masterminds the invasion of Sanjo City and orders its entire population executed, simply to spite the D-Team; he is willing to repeat this all over the world, until humanity is subjugated. Also, Seth’s actions in the present day will erase the future he came from. He knows this, but he doesn’t really give a shit.

So, I would say he more than meets the standard.

Conclusion?

I don’t see any bar to Seth counting here. He’s the most personal villain the D-Team ever face, and inarguably the most depraved. He’s sadistic, petty, treacherous and doesn’t care about anyone but himself and his own quest for power.

Edited by Nathanoraptor on Jul 30th 2019 at 9:35:47 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
IukaSylvie from Kyoto, Japan Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#175087: Jul 30th 2019 at 2:44:21 AM

[tup]

RIP KissAnime.
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#175088: Jul 30th 2019 at 3:00:24 AM

Von Karma seems like a good measuring stick as someone who is just barely heinous enough to meet the mark. 2 murders (Greggory Edgeworth, Robert Hammond by proxy), 2 cases of a frameup (leaving the unconscious Miles and Yani Yogi behind with Gregory's body which resulted in the ruination of Yogi's life, having Yogi frame Miles for Hammond's murder), and one act of convincing someone (Miles) that they had inadvertently killed their own father and trying to make them confess to it in court, even though it likely wouldn't result in any serious prison time given the circumstances. Simple rapsheet, but just bad enough to make him a clear cut example of this trope.

  • Batman The Animated Series Game Boy game: The Joker plots to smuggle a bunch of teddy bears containing bombs filled with Joker Venom into Gotham to have them go off and kill many people, openly telling Batman about his plan in advance so as to lure Batman in in an attempt to kill him. The Joker later shoots the Batplane out of the sky in an attempt to kill Batman and Robin, not caring about potential collateral deaths caused by the crash.

jjj
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#175089: Jul 30th 2019 at 3:03:57 AM

[tup] music baddies, Spacek, Crainiac, and Seth.

Now then so it’s finally the 30th where I’m at which means I can finally discuss the 2nd DLC for Assassin's Creed: Odyssey The Fate of Atlantis.

What’s The Work?

The Fate Of Atlantis is the 2nd episodic Story Arc that’s serves as the conclusion to Odyssey. The premise revolves around the Eagle Bearer as they try to master the Staff of Hermes Trismegistus.

To master said staff a member of the Isu, Aletheia sends the Eagle Bearer to partake in a quest sending them to three realms, Elysium, The Underworld, and Atlantis, while revealing in the end the very fate of the third destination. Now during the Eagle Bearer’s journey she learns that the Isu can be quite the dicks none as unsavory as probably this guy Gadiros.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Gadiros is an Isu who serves as an Archon of Atlantis where his father Poseidon rule. Appearing in the mission “Crowd Pleaser”, Gadiros is revealed to run an arena where he has enslaved numerous humans and forces them to fight each other to the death for the entertainment of his people.

Eventually The Eagle Bearer gets on with the actions and fights many armed humans for Gadiros eventually fighting Gadiros’ Champion where after they defeat him they have the option to execute or spare him; should The Eagle Bearer spare him Gadiros takes him out of the arena and is heavily implied to have killed him.

Later on Gadiros would bring a group of defenseless and innocent men and women in chains and force The Eagle Bearer to execute them for the entertainment of the crowd. Should the Eagle Bearer refuse to execute the unarmed human, Gadiros orders his men to murder everyone in the arena murdered, including the crowd, the defenseless people and the Eagle Bearer while he attempts to escape.

It seems like Gadiros has escaped justice only to be arrested along with two other brothers where Atlas gives The Eagle Bearer to kill them.

Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?

Now Gadiros tries to justify his actions saying that the humans of Atlantis will revolt unless kept pacified with a steady supply of entertainment through murder and bloodsport. That said there’s no well intentions for this reasoning, and this is done entirely out of cowardice of not wanting the humans he oppressed to kill him.

Also Gadiros never says or does anything that he shows that he cares for his brothers and father and does everything out of self preservation. Just that Gadiros is a coward who drinks a lot and thinks that Murder Is the Best Solution.

Lastly the Isu can be dicks, but they are never regarded as Always Chaotic Evil as there are some Isu that are genuinely nice, Aletheia and Poseidon to name a few. In the end Gadiros is not given a any sympathy or proper justification for all the atrocities that he committed

Heinousness

Okay to break it down Persephone from the first episode has brainwashed her subjects to stay in Elysium and kills her subordinate when he fails her, Hades from the 2nd episode causes a lot of suffering to his people in the underworld, Juno and her husband Aita has kidnapped people throughout Atlantis and conducts horrific experiment on forcibly transforming them into monstrous abominations, and Poseidon decides to sink Atlantis taking the denizens with it.

That said they all have militating factors that prevents them from qualifying. Persephone is genuinely Affably Evil and garners sympathy that she was imprisoned by Hades and forced to marry him, Hades seemed to loved Persephone and was upset that The Eagle Bearer killed his beloved dog Ros, Juno and Aita seem to love one another, and Poseidon’s reasons for sinking Atlantis was to prevent Juno and Aitia’s monstrous experiments from being unleashed in the world.

Now Gadiros is a small scale villain only making one major appearance in a single mission and has far less resources to work with compared to the above, but with limited screen time and resources I think he gives himself a unique niche. Not only is he responsible for forcing humans to fight each other to the death simply for entertainment, but he forces The Eagle Bearer to kill defenseless people and if they don’t do that he just orders everyone in the arena including crowds and his prisoners murdered while he attempts to flee.

Also no Atlas doesn’t count because he doesn’t really do much to stand out other than have his three brothers killed and one of them (Gadiros) really had it coming.

Final Verdict

I’ll leave it to you guys!

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175090: Jul 30th 2019 at 3:08:29 AM

[tup] Craniac (that's how the TMNT wiki spells it). Karma Houdini? Also, WTF is THIS?

Sure to Seth.

Leaning yes on Gadiros.

Edited by ACW on Jul 30th 2019 at 6:14:32 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175092: Jul 30th 2019 at 3:26:56 AM

Anyone willing to trim this? I don't know the game at ALL.

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#175094: Jul 30th 2019 at 3:53:38 AM

I actually think that last page for Injustice!Brainiac works best - it gets the point across quickly.

Only problem is it might be too wordy.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#175095: Jul 30th 2019 at 4:02:49 AM

@ACW, I think the wiki misspelled it, the comic calls him Crainiac and yeah he escapes with no punishment.

Hey man, Raph don't bluff, everything worked out in the end, Donnie saved Manx's life and fixed him so he was no longer insane, but Raph does not play around, these comics may look cute, but the stories do get dark sometimes. I think being a post climate change disaster world has made him even more jaded.

Also yes to Seth and Gadiros.

Edited by Overlord on Jul 30th 2019 at 4:07:51 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#175096: Jul 30th 2019 at 4:11:34 AM

[tup]Seth and Gadiros

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#175097: Jul 30th 2019 at 4:17:52 AM

Yes to Seth and Gadiros and welcome to the thread Nathan!

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#175098: Jul 30th 2019 at 4:39:17 AM

[tup]Seth and Gadiros. Welcome to the thread, Nathan.

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#175099: Jul 30th 2019 at 4:47:06 AM

[tup] Gadiros.

I have an effort post ready for a character from Skyrim, a character in particular who's never been discussed before, but since this is my first one, I was hoping somebody might be willing to proofread it first, just to see if it's acceptable to submit or if it needs work before I can propose it.

RIP KissAnime.
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#175100: Jul 30th 2019 at 4:48:02 AM

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