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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#175001: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:00:35 PM

Non sapient creatures don't efcect the heinous standard? So beings Made of Evil do but creatures such as animals who kill on instinct don't?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175002: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:01:07 PM

You know, that is a VERY good point.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#175003: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:02:26 PM

Again, animals killing on instinct lack moral agency. A grizzly bear attacks a man, but it's not the same as it making the moral decision to. Reminds me a lot of that debacle over those two lions from Ghost and the Darkness.

Edited by AustinDR on Jul 29th 2019 at 3:02:53 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#175004: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:02:58 PM

Well you know beings made of evil can you know talk or at least react human like.

Why should I care what a random animal does

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#175007: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:21:31 PM

maltypeek

Happy belated 7000 pages everyone. Hopefully we can reach 10000 pages in the future.

That being said, sure to Being X and Satan.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#175008: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:28:20 PM

[tup] to god and Satan. Happy 7000 everyone

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#175009: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:33:24 PM

Yes to God and Satan. Happy 7000.

Before I propose Craniac, I have got some obscure Mirage TMNT villains I am not sure about.

The first is the Bloodsucker, a mutant leech who appeared in the River story (which seems to have dubious canon status), where a leech bites Raph, mutating itself and devolving Raph. The Bloodsucker wants to become a serial killer after that, killing a game warden and a crooked businessman and tried to kill 3 kids. It wants to drain the rest of the Turtles of their blood so that it can become more powerful and turn the world into its own personal game preserve, where it can hunt any human it wants, where it can kill any human it wants.

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bloodsucker

Bloodsucker claims it needs human blood to survive, but is also very sadistic.

Bloodsucker has a master, a river god named Old Man River, who claims to control everything in the river and he is responsible for the leech biting Raph and he is briefly able to mind control the Turtles. The Bloodsucker is called an merciless engine of malice by the narration, but after it is defeated and turned back into a normal leech, Raph declares it is harmless now and throws it back into the river.

The other villain I want to talk about is Complete Carnage (who was created before the Spidey villain) who gained powers from a Native American curse that turned him into a creature that gains power from the industrial world, he can control man-made structures to a degree and he phase and through man-made creations he wills (he can phase right through a brick wall to attack you). He has 3 appearances, the first 2 are pretty generic, he mainly wants to kill his rival Radical, a hero who gained nature powers from the same Native American curse that changed Complete Carnage. Complete Carnage and Radical do seem drawn to fight each other. In first 2 appearances, the only really nasty thing he did is kill a bunch of monks after they taught him to better use his powers. His last appearance is set a 100 years in the future (Leo is alive, but older, makes sense given how long Turtles last) Radical is the same age as before and they are dating (I guess she is ageless due to her powers?). Any way Complete Carnage kills Radical and runs off. He then kidnaps several women in Hong Kong and plans to kill them. Leo confronts him, but says he forgives him for killing Radical. Complete Carnage laughs in his face and kills one of the women. Leo then kills him, declaring him irredeemable:

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Complete_Carnage_(Mirage)

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Complete_Carnage_(future)_(Mirage)

So questions are, would Bloodsucker and Complete Carnage be heinous enough to count? Also, do people here think Bloodsucker and Complete Carnage have moral agency and should future Complete Carnage be treated as a different version than the present one? Bloodsucker seemed to take direction from Old Man River and one could argue that the Native American curse affected Complete Carnage's agency. But Bloodsucker is pretty sadistic and I am not sure Old Man River is making him want to turn the world into his own private hunting grounds and in the future storyline, Leo expected Complete Carnage to accept his forgiveness (which does not) which would not make sense if Complete Carnage lacks moral agency. Is Leo being naive here or does this narrative say complete Carnage has moral agency?

Sorry for this being long, these characters are ones I have thought about for a while and I am not completely sure what to make of them, which is why I never Eped them. I thought I would ask the thread first and see what they thought (though I have sent [PMs] some troopers about Complete Carnage in the past).

Edited by Overlord on Jul 29th 2019 at 3:38:07 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175010: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:39:30 PM

Carnage I'm not QUITE certain is heinous enough; Bloodsucker is, but agency is an issue. Count me abstain for both.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#175011: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:44:49 PM

[up] Fair enough, I am not proposing them persay (I would do a full EP for that), I am just seeing whether people here thing they are worth proposing.

Edited by Overlord on Jul 29th 2019 at 3:45:44 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175012: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:46:08 PM

Hey, no issues with that. If I'm unsure, I usually propose.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#175013: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:50:14 PM

[up] I do like to be fairly free of doubt before going forward with the effort of an EP post for a character. Plus its fun to talk about less straight forward characters, characters who are a bit murky and create some debate.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175014: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:54:57 PM

Anyway, speaking of effortposts...

Before I begin, I discovered the trope Horrible History Metal.

Okay, Hitler's tomorrow. First off, got 2 other music ones.


First after Mir pointed out how few of the top CM's I've not done, I wanted to find one for Jack the Ripper. So: Sigh's "In the Mind of a Lunatic":
A man is searching for a girl to get him through the night
And with a smile he gets a lady for he knows his price is right
Off they go into an alley it's just around the bend
But one's not coming back for the Ripper's loose again
Deep does cut the knife into another lady's life
For a man is killing off the corner whores
And with a steady hand he creeps around the land
this slashing fiend does bring a scene of gore
From top down to the bottom his victims feel the knife
For with precision and great care they have been cut
The horror of their faces are now stuck in scenes of fright
From the brutal acts committed on these sluts
Lunatic, you are just a maniac
Lunatic, on thoughts you do react
Lunatic, death is your domain
Lunatic, you're the man with rotten brains
He seems to be invisible and blends into the crowd
While setting sights on all there is to see
While he lurks around the shadows he doesn't find suspicion
For he shows no guilt and brings no mystery
With a look of class and money he always fits the role
And has no problem locking down his deadly fix
To the ladies he's a charmer a gentleman in lust
That will pay them nicely for their dirty tricks
For weeks the kills continue and still no sign of guilt
As he keeps on killing with a touch of ease
the town is drenched in murder while the whores are drenched in blood
And London has no clue, who is this beast?
In time the killings ended but the case was never solved
And the curios they never went away
But no one was ever named for the crimes of Jack the Ripper
It's a mystery that's lasting till this very day
No redeeming qualities, heinous enough...it's Jack for crying out loud [lol]
Now, from Slayer: "Angel of Death", about Mengele (graphic content warning):
Auschwitz, the meaning of pain
The way that I want you to die
Slow death, immense decay
Showers that cleanse you of your life
Forced in
Like cattle
You run
Stripped of
Your life's worth
Human mice, for the angel of death
Four hundred thousand more to die
Angel of death
Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
Sadistic, surgeon of demise
Sadist of the noblest blood
Destroying, without mercy
To benefit the Aryan race
Surgery, with no anesthesia
Fell the knife pierce you intensely
Inferior, no use to mankind
Strapped down screaming out to die
Angel of death
Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
Infamous butcher,
Angel of death
Pumped with fluid, inside your brain
Pressure in your skull begins pushing through your eyes
Burning flesh, drips away
Test of heat burns your skin, your mind starts to boil
Frigid cold, cracks your limbs
How long can you last
In this frozen water burial?
Sewn together, joining heads
Just a matter of time
til you rip yourselves apart
Millions laid out in their
Crowded tombs
Sickening ways to achieve
The holocaust
Seas of blood, bury life
Smell your death as it burns
Deep inside of you
Abacinate, eyes that bleed
Praying for the end of
Your wide awake nightmare
Wings of pain, reach out for you
His face of death staring down,
Your blood running cold
Injecting cells, dying eyes
Feeding on the screams of
The mutants hes creating
Pathetic harmless victims
Left to die
Rancid angel of death
Flying free
Angel of death
Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
Infamous butcher,
Angel of death
Angel of death\\
No redeeming qualities (unless you count "To benefit the Aryan race"), OBVIOUSLY heinous enough.

Apparently some people took this song to mean Slayer supported Nazis. Um...

Edited by ACW on Jul 29th 2019 at 6:55:10 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#175015: Jul 29th 2019 at 3:55:47 PM

God, you guys talking about Crossed is confusing me cause I keep thinking of Stitched, another ennis work.

I say non-sapient creature heinousness should be a case by case thing.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#175016: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:05:35 PM

What is the work? War Dog is a 1987 Swedish low-budget action flick and the original Universal Soldier. Charles Stewart is a veteran whose brother, Ricky, has been declared Killed In Action by the army, except there is no body. Desperate for answers, Charles discovers that his brother fell victim to a Government Conspiracy, and a figure from his past is the one behind it all.

Who is he? Charles and Ricky's old commanding officer back in 'Nam, Colonel Spacek conscripted several of the soldiers who served under him into his War Dog program before leaving the army and running a training camp in South Africa, resulting in dozens of soldiers going missing; and what is the War Dog program about? The program involves brainwashing veterans and "pumping them full of drugs until they don't know who's friend or foe", turning them into mindless killing machines for Spacek. Despite the fact that the War Dogs are more effective at committing killing sprees rather than focusing on their target, Spacek is proud of his work and sees them as genuine Super Soldiers. As an "exercise", Spacek unleashes the War Dogs on a gas station, massacring everyone there, including the children, with Spacek himself participating in the carnage and personally killing two civilians. Sending the War Dogs to assassinate those who might expose them to the public, a man is strangled with Razor Wire, a journalist is shot to death and several police officers are killed because of him. Releasing a War Dog at a water park, he kills one of Charles' friends and even more civilians before he is stopped.

When Charles invades his base, Spacek tortures him with hooks and forces Charles to fight with him as a possible recruitment process. Called for a meeting with government officials, Spacek is informed that the government is interested closing down the project, turns out they don't really appreciate the fact that he's turning innocent soldiers into living zombies and massacring the population with them, but Spacek does make a valid point when he says that his methods are Not So Different from the government, he's manipulating their minds with drugs, not with some "political or religious crap". After breaking free from the brainwashing, the brothers escape the facility and kill all the War Dogs in their path until they finally manage to confront Spacek, who tries to coerce Ricky into killing Charles, only to get blown up with a grenade launcher. Even after his death, Spacek's influence still lives on, as Ricky is unable to become normal again, slitting the throat of a family friend and almost killing his sister-in-law before being gunned down by the police. One of the most tragic examples of a Bittersweet Ending that i've ever seen in film.

Mitigating Factors? He feels disappointed when one of his War Dogs is killed, but then admires Charles for killing him, so nah.

Heinous? Let's see: Turning his own men into mindless zombies? Check. The mastermind behind multiple assassinations? Check. Releasing his killing machines to massacre innocent civilians and police officers? Check. Yeah, he's bad enough.

Conclusion? Easy [tup]

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Jul 29th 2019 at 8:13:53 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175019: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:16:19 PM

[up] That include the music baddies? Crow, your thoughts on the music baddies?

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#175021: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:18:41 PM

Oh, sorry ACW, wasn't expecting that format. [tup] to them.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#175022: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:19:55 PM

[up] Heh, no worries. For music ones, I find it easier to just post the lyrics.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#175023: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:21:24 PM

[tup] Spawn Duo (Not gonna lie, seeing God as a CM is a bit uncomfortable for me), Music Baddies, and Spacek.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#175024: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:21:54 PM

[tup]everybody on this page

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
IukaSylvie from Kyoto, Japan Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#175025: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:24:10 PM

[tup] ACW's duo and Spacek.

By the way, which Complete Monster is your measuring stick for depravity? Mine is Akio Ohtori from Revolutionary Girl Utena. He's so evil that in my opinion, he curb stomps even Endeavor and Kai Chisaki/Overhaul from My Hero Academia.


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