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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17476: Oct 2nd 2013 at 10:30:04 PM

yeah, those are great examples of someone being an evil prick

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#17477: Oct 2nd 2013 at 10:44:50 PM

Ok so I read Ultimate Reed Richards's latest issue and it seems he kind of feels remorse at first, but then it turns out he still believes that what he did was the right thing and that others will understand his monstrous ways.

Oh, and Ultimate Nova and Ultimate Silver Surfer are repulsed by him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17478: Oct 2nd 2013 at 11:33:09 PM

You'll have to update me on Reed, btw. Is it true he's succeeded in actually creating utopia?

Y'know that reminds me of an entry who I don't think we've really discussed like he deserves in Western Animation...Jenner from The Secret of NIMH

Rolling it over,I have to say, I think he's a pretty obvious keeper. His actions include playing The Starscream of the Rats of NIMH and murdering their leader Nicodemus simply because he disagrees with the plan to move them to a safe area called Thorn Valley. While one could rationalize this as Jenner having the best interests of the rats at heart, the movie, very early on, spells out his only desire is power, and Jenner later declares his creed is Take what you can when you can.

What boots him over the edge (beyond his also slashing his right hand man's throat when the guy tries to stop him from the coming act) is his plan involves sabotaging an attempt to move a house of innocent mice to crush Nicodemus, which will leave said mice (including multiple children) to sink in and drown in mud, and he clearly attempts to murder their mother when he sees she has a gem Nicodemus left to her.

All in all, the guy is pure slime, has zero redeeming qualities and has no idea killing a group of kids as a byproduct of killing his perfectly benevolent, kind and wise boss solely so he can snatch more power for himself. Nicodemus and Sullivan's deaths on their own are probably standard villainy. Otherwise, though the fact he intentionally sabotages the house moving to kill Nicodemus in a move that he is well aware will kill the four children inside in a rather nasty way is what pushes him over the edge to CM territory for me.

edited 2nd Oct '13 11:43:42 PM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#17479: Oct 2nd 2013 at 11:52:56 PM

With Doom I'm fine with cutting that part about Bambi's mom (maybe put it in the Trivia thread under What Might Have Been?) but that bit about the Toon Physics seems to me it should be included.

EDIT: And seriously, WTF's with these Ultimate Marvel villains? Ultimate Reed looks like an alien, and Ultimate Skull's almost TOO evil.

edited 2nd Oct '13 11:53:51 PM by ACW

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17480: Oct 2nd 2013 at 11:54:17 PM

You talking about ImageLinks.Complete Monster?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17481: Oct 3rd 2013 at 12:01:30 AM

[up][up]Turning the likes of Mark Millar, Orson Scott Card, and sundry other madmen loose, that's WTF is wrong with these Ultimate Marvel villains. This is the team that thought the Skull should be Cap's evil son who skinned his own face after all. Who thought Wolverine should an ephebophile. Who made Ant-Man a Domestic Abuser, which he never was in-canonnote . Who decided Cap subscribed to Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys. Who made Iron Man a hateable douche with a healing factor and brain matter under his skin. Nothing they do shocks me anymore.

edited 3rd Oct '13 12:03:43 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#17482: Oct 3rd 2013 at 5:19:42 AM

Don't forget Ultimate Magneto, who is a cannibal, kills Charles Xavier and doesn`t even have the Holocaust background as an excuse. Or the Hulk, who has been turned into a sociopathic hedonist who has RAPED people to death and delivers lines on par with Superboy Prime in terms of cheesyness ("Puny hammer just makes Hulk horny").

As far as I know though, Ultimate Reed has improved in his intetions in comparism from the previous arc, he placed the mutants (who have it even worse in the UU) under his protection for example.

And I'm late for the Breaking Bad debate, but I'm gonna vote yes on Jack and no on Todd. But if Jack is kept the Affably Evil in his character entry needs to be changed to Faux Affably Evil.

edited 3rd Oct '13 5:20:14 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#17483: Oct 3rd 2013 at 5:22:07 AM

I think that someone said Marvel was gonna try to redeem Ultimate Reed not necessarily that he had been yet. Although it sounds like he might be marginally less evil.

edited 3rd Oct '13 5:25:36 AM by TommyFresh

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#17484: Oct 3rd 2013 at 7:44:31 AM

I've seen many in favor of Jack from Breaking Bad now. So does anyone have an entry I can eventually put on the YMMV page? Plus, I don't see how he's just that bad.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#17485: Oct 3rd 2013 at 8:02:40 AM

An entry for Jack was already submitted to the Edit Requests thread.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#17486: Oct 3rd 2013 at 8:34:32 AM

"Who made Iron Man a hateable douche"

Eh, not too much of a change there...

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17487: Oct 3rd 2013 at 9:42:34 AM

[up]There's a difference between writing Tony as a jerk the way he often is in regular Marvel, and writing him as a guy who enjoys picking up teenage girls ("You are eighteen, right?"). Not to mention that the truly punchable Iron Man moments in regular Marvel are, for the most part, post-Civil War.

@despoa

When you say you don't see how he's just that bad, are you saying you don't think Jack should go up?

edited 3rd Oct '13 9:44:21 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17488: Oct 3rd 2013 at 9:44:02 AM

I haven't been following this conversation in detail, but is someone actually seriously proposing Tony Stark as a complete monster? Or am I misreading?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17489: Oct 3rd 2013 at 9:44:51 AM

[up]No. Hell no. We were just commenting on the insanity that is Ultimate Marvel in general.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#17490: Oct 3rd 2013 at 9:46:56 AM

And I was joking because Tony Stark being a huge jerk tends to be true in most media (I understand that the Ultimate verse takes it Up To Eleven though).

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17491: Oct 3rd 2013 at 9:47:15 AM

Isn't him being a jerk one of the core elements of his character?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17492: Oct 3rd 2013 at 9:52:39 AM

According to Marvel's December Solicits Ultimate Reed is going to try to seek redemption. It hasn't happened yet, so we don't know if he'll actually succeed, but at least trying sounds like a somewhat redeeming quality.

I never read Ultimate Marvel, and from the things I hear about it I don't really want to start. There's pretty good money the entire line probably won't be around much longer, anyway.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17493: Oct 3rd 2013 at 10:30:02 AM

[up][up]There's a difference between "jerk" and "proudly alcoholic ephebophile and possible date rapist". A pretty substantial one. That's what Hodor and I were talking about.

[up]Thank god.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#17494: Oct 3rd 2013 at 10:31:47 AM

Isn't Galactus supposed to eat that universe or something like that?

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#17495: Oct 3rd 2013 at 10:37:42 AM

[up] That's the guess. He got shunted into that universe by the timeline-screwage in Age of Ultron and supercharged himself by merging with his counterpart there. I'm told sales have been pretty dreary ever since all the A-list characters died (thanks, Mr. Loeb!) so it might as well be a Mercy Kill.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#17496: Oct 3rd 2013 at 10:38:11 AM

He's attacking it currently, but it's destruction is all just a rumour at the moment.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#17497: Oct 3rd 2013 at 10:46:00 AM

@Ambar Sonof Deshar

What I'm trying to say is that I don't see how Jack Welker in Breaking Bad is such a horrifying villain compared to the Salamanca Cousins. The Cousins indiscriminately kill with no emotions or signs or remorse, even if it's completely unnecessary. Jack seems to just do what every other villain has done in the series. He slavery part was Todd's idea with the threats being there for a reason and he decides to kill Walter because he really doesn't need him anymore.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#17498: Oct 3rd 2013 at 11:07:37 AM

[up]That may all be true, but you're asking the wrong person about it. I've never seen Breaking Bad, and cast my votes based on the information that others provide. If you think Jack should be removed, then make a case for it.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#17499: Oct 3rd 2013 at 11:20:36 AM

We actually cut Ultimate's Version (Gah Lak Tus) awhile back.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17500: Oct 3rd 2013 at 11:21:11 AM

While it was Todd's idea jack still did it and had Andrea killed and Heros. Use as insurance


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