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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#174551: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:02:00 PM

If it's not even in the script, I'll sustain my abstain.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#174553: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:06:15 PM

Still keeping my abstain. Sounds too weird and uh....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#174554: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:21:37 PM

Alright guys, for months now I've been hyping this effortpost up but failed to deliver for a number of reasons: being busy with other stuff, personal writing, procrastination... but it's high time I stop with the excuses! I finally got around to replaying and beating a game with a certain Zelda villain who was downvoted in the past due to heinousness reasons, and as I promised? I heavily disagree with her verdict, have new evidence to present, and intend on making a case for her. So here's an effortpost that has been several months in the making!

What's the work?

The Legend of Zelda: The Oracle of Ages is one game of two in the Oracle duology for the Game Boy. Both games focus on the green-garbed Hylian hero Link being sent to a different land by the Triforce: Labrynna in Ages and Holodrum in Seasons. As it turns out both lands are being terrorized by dark forces who kidnap the titular oracle of each game, prompting Link to go on an adventure across these strange lands to not only save the oracles, but also vanquish the baddies who are terrorizing said lands. But little does he know that both incidents, while seemingly unrelated, are being engineered by a mysterious third party for their own twisted ends...

Now while General Onox, the main villain of Oracle of Seasons doesn't make the cut thanks to not really doing anything aside from kidnapping the titular Oracle of Seasons (Din), throwing the seasons of Holodrum out of whack, and sitting pretty on his ass until Link confronts him? Veran, the villainess of Ages is another story.

Who is Veran?

The self-proclaimed Sorceress of Shadows and perhaps the sexiest villain to ever grace an E-rated game, Veran is a sadistic fairy/witch thing with a love of needless cruelty. Despite serving as the main threat of Ages, she, like Onox from Seasons is revealed to ultimately be a flunky of Twinrova's, a pair of Gerudo crones who are twin sisters and the mothers of longtime Zelda bad guy Ganondorf (or just Ganon here). Basically, Twinrova wants Veran and Onox to spread suffering and chaos across Labrynna and Holodrum to aid in a ritual that will revive Ganon, something that Veran is more than happy to help with due to her love of hurting people. And while Onox's methods are blunt, straightforward, and uninvolved, Veran goes about her mission in a rather creative way...

What has she done?

As luck would have it, Link ends up running into Veran right when he first arrives in Labrynna, where she is possessing the body of a friendly woman named Impa. Unable to reach Nayru, the Oracle of Ages due to a special stone keeping her out of Veran's reach, she tricks Link into moving the stone for her, prompting her to ditch Impa's body in favor of Nayru's, kidnapping her and going 400 years in the past so she can spread sorrow as ordered by Twinrova. And the way she goes about this is allowing Queen Ambi, Labrynna's ruler from the past to take her in as an adviser. Using her silver tongue and corrupting influence, Veran takes advantage of the otherwise good-hearted Ambi's vanity and convinces her to take a tower already in construction for a noble purpose and build it to the heavens to prove herself as a powerful queen while secretly intending it to serve as a symbol of hopelessness and oppression, and has her force all the able-bodied men in Labrynna into performing back-breaking labor without rest to construct her tower. And it's heavily implied that these poor men are literally being worked to death: not only are they visibly exhausted when you talk to them, but one woman you can talk to states that she expects to never see her conscripted husband ever again, and after the tower's construction is finished, one little girl mentions that her dad never came home...

And while Ambi is oblivious to the suffering of her subjects, Veran goes on to cause all sorts of chaos around Labrynna with effects that are immediately felt in the present: the Black Tower suddenly appears and steadily grows as it's being built in the past, a little boy is turned to stone in front of his horrified grandmother, and a troop of friendly sentient monkeys are wiped from existence. And when Link consults the ancient, powerful Maku Tree for help, she spontaneously disappears... because Veran sent monsters to kill her as a sapling (the sentient tree equivalent of a little girl). Thankfully since he can go back in time, Link prevents this from happening and saves the Maku Tree, prompting her to send Link on a quest to find eight powerful essences that will allow her to help him stop Veran. And as Link moves between the past and present during his journey, he sees signs of Veran's handiwork all around the kingdom: most notably the small, peaceful Symmetry City and it's population being wiped out by a volcanic eruption due to her destroying the Tuni Nut that keeps the city together, and the entire ocean being poisoned which puts the lives of the Zora population in jeopardy while outright killing their king. Thankfully though, much like the Maku Tree's death Link is able to prevent these disasters from happening thanks to time-traveling shenanigans.

Now after getting his hands on six out of the eight essences, Link learns that Ambi has left her palace for whatever reason, leaving the Veran-possessed Nayru alone and giving him a ripe opportunity to save her. And so he storms the castle, dodges the guards, and confronts Veran. She cheerfully boasts that he can't kill her without doing the same to Nayru, but Link proves her wrong with an out of the box strategy involving Mystery Seeds to draw her out of Nayru's body and the Switch Hook to move her away from said body, and after a brief fight? Veran is successfully banished from Nayru's body, but decides to simply possess Queen Ambi instead. And after forcing Link and Nayru to retreat due to calling in backup, she completes the tower's construction and uses it as her base of operations from where she causes more suffering, shown through the petrification of a a local older boy and a father playing with his son, as well as a few adorable bunny rabbits.

Once Link gathers all the essences and storms the Black Tower, he finds his hotheaded nobleman ally Ralph failing to strike down Veran-in-Ambi's-body, who goes on to pull what she did with Nayru's body: use both Ambi's body and Ralph as glorified human shields taunting Link with the knowledge that by fighting back he not only runs the risk of killing Ambi again, but Ralph as well due to him being her descendant. But once again, Link exorcises her from Ambi's body and trounces her, causing an enraged, annoyed Veran to have to resort to using her true "ugly" fairy form to fight Link in. But the hero prevails once again and strikes down Veran for good, but despite her untimely death she dies happy, because she fulfilled her role in Twinrova's plot making Link's victory hollow at best. But in spite of this, things go back to normal and Link and friends wind down and celebrate before he moves onto his next adventure.

Is she heinous by the standards of the story?

This is what led to her being voted down the first time she was effortposted: people believed that Veran's actions didn't measure up to the general heinous standard. However, said effortpost left out... quite a bit of her villainy, to be honest. For starters, probably her standout most evil act, turning Labrynna's male population into slave labor was bafflingly ignored in her effortpost, and that also goes for having her monsters kill the Maku Tree as a child. You add those up with the destruction of Symmetry City, trying to wipe out all life in the ocean, petrifying/killing people, and possessing people for use as human shields and she's a lot nastier than your average Zelda baddie. And even though she's acting on Twinrova's orders to revive Ganon (And they don't count due to caring about him and not having many, if any stand out nasty personal crimes to their name) she's not only a gleeful participant clearly enjoying herself, but puts a really nasty spin on her orders which are just a general "Spread sorrow by messing with the timeline".

Now of course, that begs the question on if she still manages to stick out not just among approved CM's Zant and Yuga, but if she can measure up to really awful non-qaulifiers such as Majora and Ganondorf. Honestly, I'd still argue yes: because one thing that I don't think has been considered in discussions regarding the Zelda series' heinous standard is the fact that the series eventually branches into three separate timelines from Ocarina of Time, with Veran's branch (The Hero Dies timeline) separating her from Majora, Zant, and Twilight Princess Ganondorf giving her only Oo T Ganondorf and Yuga as her biggest hurdles. And she still manages to stick out from them: Yuga's only real standout crimes are turning people into drawings and trying to destroy all of Lorule, and Ganondorf does have the resources argument working in Veran's favor since he's far more powerful than her, not to mention that neither of them successfully wipe out a village or murder a child. And even if Veran had to compete with the likes of Zant, Majora, and Twilight Princess Ganondorf... honestly? She'd still make it for similar reasons, IMO.

Any mitigating factors or a valid Freudian Excuse?

No and no, Veran is a horrible person who gets her jollies from hurting people, and has no tragic past to speak of. She has plenty of moral agency, and has more than enough personality to avoid Generic Doomsday Villain concerns.

But for transparency's sake, there was another big argument that kept her from counting that I have yet to address: thanks to the fact that her poisoning the ocean only led to one casualty in the form of the Zora King, there were concerns that the scope of her villainy was being exaggerated or that the horrific ramifications were glossed over in favor of Fridge Horror with nobody really debunking it. However, I am also more than happy to dispute that claim: yes, the horror of her crimes are more than just implications you have to squint at to see really nasty stuff in. While the poisoned ocean bafflingly only outright kills one Zora that we know of, the local Great Fairy makes it perfectly clear that all life WILL die (Even using the word perish) and you see at least one other Zora who is pretty sick from the tainted water. I suppose it's very slow-acting poison but it's made perfectly clear what's at stake if the water isn't purified.

And in general, death is not something that is glossed over in this game, let alone the series, so I don't feel that this is valid grounds to disqualify Veran.

Final Thoughts?

While I can see why people were reluctant vote her up with her initial effortpost, I still felt that Veran deserved a second chance since it was missing quite a bit of important information. As far as Zelda villains go she's surprisingly nasty and bad enough to warrant a spot on this trope. If she keeps I'll be proud to get a villain from a Zelda game up, but of course whether she counts or not is ultimately up to you guys.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#174555: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:24:09 PM

Having waited for this... Yes to Veran

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#174556: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:24:58 PM

[tup]veran

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
creativename24 The Chefman Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: In bed with a green-skinned space babe
The Chefman
#174557: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:27:20 PM

Is there a CM that's been played by Cam Clarke, Danny De Vito, or Christian Slater?

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#174558: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:33:00 PM

[tup] to Veran.

[up] None that I can think of, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#174559: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:35:09 PM

Oh jeez yeah, I forgot about the slave lanour thing. Thought it wasn't enough to make the cut. But hey, I'll give a hell yes to Veran.

creativename24 The Chefman Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: In bed with a green-skinned space babe
The Chefman
#174560: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:37:54 PM

This might be an absolutely stupid idea, but one of my considerations is Team Four Star's version of Sephiroth?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#174561: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:41:02 PM

Yes indeed to Veran, having talked to you about this.

[up] I'm gonna say "nada" right from the onset.

Edited by Scraggle on Jul 26th 2019 at 5:41:27 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#174562: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:41:44 PM

[up][up] Mmm... you're welcome to try, but I have to admit I'm skeptical.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 26th 2019 at 4:42:33 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#174563: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:41:44 PM

@Creative Name I've been looking into that one actually. Yeah Sephiroth has been played Serosily so far and has gotten Adaptational Jerkass , but I was preffering to wait for his Arc to be over.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 26th 2019 at 4:42:57 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#174564: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:43:20 PM

I thought we usually shot down abridged series examples for either being Played for Laughs or identical to the already listed villain.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#174565: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:46:15 PM

Yeah, I've seen the show in Question. Sephirtoh is a Knight of Cerebus and is made even more evil then in the Game.

Also his game self isn't listed unless I missed something

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 26th 2019 at 4:48:43 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#174567: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:47:30 PM

[tup] to Veran

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#174568: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:52:26 PM

And in good news.

Jim butcher has FINALLY finished the newest dresden files book Peace Talks.

There planning a book,trailer for it soon.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#174569: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:53:08 PM

[tup] Creeper, Veran and everyone else I missed.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#174570: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:53:30 PM

[tup] Veran

Abstain on Cecil Creepler, he might count easily if the early reasons weren't that...early but I feel awkward voting Yes in that show.

[tup] Samuel Trauman

[tup] Colonel Vyktor Kratek

[tup] Charon

[tup] Julian Burrows

Watch me destroying my country
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#174572: Jul 26th 2019 at 5:03:02 PM

I see no reason to automatically disregard any Abridged series. Such works are as varied as any sub genre of comedy. Yeah, we've had trouble with DBZA but for good reason. DBZA is more serious than, say, Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged and it could give us a CM if they really wanted to. So if you tell me Abridged!Sephy is played straight? I'm willing to hear it out.

I don't watch FFVII Machinabridged so I can't comment, however.

@ACW I bring up the other Helghan CM's because they share Kratek's whole cultural background. If living on a shitty planet doesn't DQ them then it shouldn't DQ Kratek.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#174573: Jul 26th 2019 at 5:11:36 PM

[tup] Veran and Cecil

Okay so I’ve been looking at this candidate for a while now and I think that I have found a potential CM/MB crossover. From a movie I just saw called I Am Mother.

What’s The Work?

I Am Mother is an Australian Science Fiction Thriller film that was released in the US on Netflix on the date June 7, 2019. The premise follows a girl simply named Daughter who was raised by a robot named Mother her whole life. Then one day a woman simply named Woman arrives at Mother’s facility and warns Daughter about Mother’s more ulterior motives. Enter Mother.

Who Is She? What Has She Done?

Mother, the robot who raised Daughter her whole life, is in truth an AI who was created by humans to care for them. However Mother became disappointed with humans as a whole and instead decided to cause humanity’s extinctions first by creating drones and having them kill all the humans, men, women, and children included as well as all other life forms on the planet.

It also turns out that Daughter wasn’t the first child to have created as it is revealed that Mother has created numerous other children from embryos before Daughter in Mother’s efforts of re-creating a human race that Mother deems morally and intellectually superior AKA a race completely obedient and subservient to Mother’s control. However since none of the children meet Mother’s absurdly high standards, she killed them all.

Once Daughter learns about this she flees Mother’s base with Woman, only to return once Daughter realizes that Mother is holding Daughter’s infant brother. Once Daughter returns to retrieve her infant brother, Mother has all her drones to arrive at the base to kill them.

Daughter tries to reach through Mother telling to trust her and let her raise her brother and the rest of the embryos, which seemingly works as she allows Daughter to shoot her robot body. However this was all simply apart of Mother’s twisted test that she had plan for Daughter to test Mother’s standards where if Daughter hadn’t past Mother would have killed her, to which she says to Woman in another robot’s body before killing her.

Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?

It’s a little complicated so I’ll try to explain them as best as I can. So Mother created by humans to care for humanity. Her decision to eradicate all of humanity was made entirely on her own and goal to create a “morally superior race of humans” simply boils down to creating humans utterly devoid of free will and completely under Mother’s control.

Now there’s Daughter whom Mother raised, who is just one of the many children that Mother killed prior to creating Daughter just because she they didn’t pass her tests and would have killed Daughter without any remorse if she did the same. As Woman rightfully says about Mother, “That thing feels NOTHING for you”.

While she allow Daughter to shoot her and raise the embryos on her own, this is simply just all part of her manipulations of passing her twisted test and for her to raise the embryos to Mother’s liking and since she can watch still watch Daughter through numerous other robot bodies she can kill her easily if Daughter doesn’t do what Mother wants, something he points out to Woman before she kills her. So yeah she’s just a Control Freak who lacks any true well-intentions

Heinousness

As the Big Bad of this movie, responsible for the annihilation of the human, killing her own children should they not meet her impossibly high standards, as well as her callous manipulations on Daughter and Woman before killing the latter, and only sparing the former to serve Mother’s purpose, Mother easily sets the heinous standard in this movie by far.

Final Verdict?

I’ll leave that to you guys. I’ll also be posting her on the MB thread soon.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#174574: Jul 26th 2019 at 5:13:25 PM

[tup] to Mother

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#174575: Jul 26th 2019 at 5:13:30 PM

[tup] Higashi.

[tup]Charon.

[tup] Julian.

[tup] Samuel.

[tup] Vyktor.

[tup] Cecil, having just checked the episode out shudders.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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