During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
So I have not one, but two proposals tonight, both from the same game: Dragon Quest VII, part of a series I've been starting to get into after some recent developments.
First, info on the game.
Dragon Quest VII is...well, the seventh main entry in the long-running RPG series. You play as a boy who lives on an island called Estard that makes up the entirety of the livable world. That is, until he and two close friends end up discovering a shrine that lets them travel to different islands that were destroyed in the past. Conveniently, they're taken to the last moments of these islands, and their efforts in solving the problems there revive the islands in the present. For the first proposal, we have the Big Bad responsible for the destruction of the islands and their inhabitants: the Demon King Orgodemir, who was previously listed but cut very early in the thread's history because no one at the time knew enough about the game to vouch for him.
Who is Orgodemir?
Orgodemir is the local demon lord of this entry and, in the spirit of some recent proposals, is the Dragon Quest version of Satan himself. Upon his rise to power, Orgodemir went on a rampage and, through his various servants, destroyed the people of every island except for Estard and sealing the islands away to weaken the God stand-in the Almighty. One notable example is sending a monster to petrify various towns, one of which can't even be saved at all thanks to the statues eroding to the point the petrification is irreversible save for one boy who was underground and safe from the elements. His most direct and cruel torture is in the city of Buccanham, a place that allied with a band of pirates dedicated to defeating Orgodemir; in response to their actions, not only did he freeze the pirates and their ship for as long as he lived and then some, but also cursed Buccanham so that every newborn baby would turn into a mindless, raging monster on the full moon and attack the city before leaving to join the other monsters; this curse would thankfully end upon the death of the monster Orgodemir put in charge of the Buccanham forces.
The Almighty, knowing that Orgodemir had to be stopped, built an alliance of warriors to assist him in the battle against the Demon King, with the strongest being a man named Mervyn. The Almighty, however, realized that he would lose their final battle, so he set things up to ensure Orgodemir's downfall anyway. Before the battle, he sealed Mervyn away so he could reawaken when the protagonist was on his journey and aid him in restoring the world. Speaking of which, the Almighty was also the one who built the Shrine of Mysteries on Estard, which the heroes would use to stop the annihilation of the islands and restore the world. The heroes ultimately find a way to travel back to the battle between the Almighty and Orgodemir, which was the final failsafe the Almighty set up: the Almighty couldn't defeat the full-powered Orgodemir, but Orgodemir's victory still took a massive toll on himself, and he was weakened enough for the heroes to finish the job. Orgodemir gives an As Long as There Is Evil speech and dies, and with the world restored as well, everyone is finally at peace. The heroes even help complete a ritual to revive the Almighty, which makes things even better.
...And then the Almighty proceeds to seal a bunch of islands away, unleash monsters onto the world, and proceed to rule with an iron fist. For you see, that final speech of Orgodemir wasn't there for show; the "Almighty" that was revived was actually the spirit of Orgodemir. The islands he sealed away were the ones that held pieces of the Almighty; only by awakening all four could Orgodemir's curse be broken. In the end, the heroes engage Orgodemir again and kill him for good.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
HELL YES. This game's setting is quite dark compared to most of the series, and Orgodemir is responsible for all of it. One of the first things you do on each island is find out what kind of horrendous curse Orgodemir's forces put there, and not every town gets a happy ending even if their crisis is technically resolved. And as mentioned, these curses can be pretty brutal, with the king of them all being the whole turning newborns into mindless monsters business. Also keep in mind that his body count is over 95% of the world, even if most of it ends up fixed by the end.
Mitigating factors?
Nope. He's Satan, and all he wants is to take the truly benevolent Almighty's place as the ultimate being. He gets one odd personality quirk in that he's very vain, preferring his humanoid form (described as a dandy) over his true form whenever possible, but even this ends up showing how bad he is in his final form, where he's unable to keep his illusion of beauty as he's damaged and mutates into a grotesque version of his true form.
Verdict?
to another Satan.
Now on to the second candidate from this game, that being one of Orgodemir's lackeys and the Monster of the Week for the rather long Alltrades Abbey arc: Cardinal Sin.
Who is Cardinal Sin?
Cardinal Sin is the leader of the monsters that have taken over Alltrades Abbey, the hub of the Job System. Disguised as the high priest, he has other disguised monsters rush visitors into changing classes, at which point Cardinal Sin steals their power and dumps them into Pilgrim's Perdition, which he aptly calls a living hell. The heroes end up stuck here as well, finding a town full of despairing, powerless individuals. Sin's minions leave them well enough alone except for occasionally informing them how to win their freedom. Someone who shows interest must give up part of their soul to create a Soulstealer, which turns the wielder into their own Shadow Archetype, and steal the souls of five other residents of the Perdition. The five victims of the Soulstealer have their bodies taken to Precipice Pass, a higher level where the survivors of Sin's original attack on the Abbey are kept, to act as the area's wardens; any normal human who attempts to break the rules there are savagely attacked by the soulless humans. Those who successfully steal five souls are taken to Allblades Arena, which is built deceptively similar to the Abbey, where they must fight and win a tournament to the death in order to truly win freedom. Those who manage to win are taken to Cardinal Sin himself, who reveals he never intended to let anyone leave and just kills the poor sap. The heroes climb their way back to the Abbey, witnessing all three areas and all the suffering they inflict on the people there and all the Hope Spots Sin's minions inflict on their victims up to Sin murdering the last arena champion, and take him down.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
As I mentioned before, this is a dark game, and Orgodemir himself is nasty. Cardinal Sin is merely one of the local villains working for him; basically a Monster of the Week, and his end goal is the same as the other lackeys: Further Orgodemir's plans by destroying an island. Sin stands out both because of how long his arc is compared to the other islands and because, unlike most of the other islands where any psychological torment is merely a welcome side effect of the main curse, his setup runs on the psychological aspects, giving him a unique niche. He even admits before the boss fight that, while stealing people's skills was the original goal, the extreme suffering of his victims in the three floors of his living hell ended up being worth far more power than the stolen skills. His body count is also very high, between both slaughtering nearly all of the Abbey's guards in the initial attack and all the deaths the Soulstealers, the soulless guards, and the arena cause.
Mitigating factors?
Nope. Nada. Any mercy he shows is yet another one of his Hope Spots. No monsters to deal with in Pilgrim's Perdition? You're better served wielding or dying to the Soulstealer. The soulless guards in Precipice Pass are both human and peaceful beyond vocally serving Sin and his minions? Break a rule and they'll slaughter you. Get out of the Pass and see the Abbey ahead? Nope; it's gladiatorial combat. Finally win freedom and are escorted to the Abbey proper? Sin kills you personally.
Verdict?
Another
. Fittingly enough, if both are approved, that will put me at seven (VII) keepers.
Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Jul 23rd 2019 at 4:46:25 AM
@acw: Baron Zemo is now a thing. Could we crosswick for his two entries (616 marvel and earths mightest heroes r)
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."My prediction came true much sooner than I anticipated. With this, Satan will have 35 incarnations, one more than Joker. Times have changed. I remember when there was a brief period of time where Jack the Ripper was in second place and that one Batman fan work had the Joker as the Ripper in what was a Composite Character of what was than the top two. Still, it shouldn't be long before Joker gets another incarnation. Even if he never retakes first place, he should still be able to reach the same milestone of 35 that Satan has. I wonder if one of them will ever get to 40. Given enough time, Satan might be able to reach 50.
Anyway, I added my Bluebeard write ups to the drafts. Late Happy Birthday to anyone I missed. Hopefully this year we get to 200000 posts by the end.
Oh, and for examples of one CM killing another, Mick Taylor killed Jerry and Atkin in the Wolf Creek prequel novels. The latter was his friend until Atkin betrayed Mick.
jjjAmong the CM from Six Six Six Satan, there are also Wise killing Jagga and Miko (more or less) killing Balsa (Satan himself also contributed to the defeats and/or deaths of Wise, Sabaki, Ikaros and Miko).
@Mimic 45 Speaking of 666 Satan. Mind if I post my rewrites for those baddies in the thread? I know its not that good especially on grammar department but I try at my best.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Sure to Orgodemir and Cardinal Sin.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Dragon Quest villains
Edited by KingofNightmares on Jul 23rd 2019 at 6:32:30 AM
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"The second chapter in the Vulcan Video Chronicles.
What Is the Work?
Battle Girl: The Living Dead in Tokyo Bay is a 1991 Japanese action/zombie film.
A meteorite has crashed into the Tokyo Bay area, infecting everyone with a substance called cosmo-amphetamine, which turns people into zombies when they’re killed. A woman named Keiko Kikihara (who the subtitles keep calling K-ko for some reason) is tasked by her father, Captain Kikihara, to find him and get on board a ship containing refugees so they can get out of Tokyo and find a cure for the disease. Given a battle suit and a pair of uzis, Keiko sets off to kill zombies and be with her father, though there’s worse things than zombies roaming the streets. Particularly humans.
Who Is he?
Captain Masao Fujioka is a Japan nationalist who’s trying to contaminate the virus as best he could… though that’s not to say he’s using it for his own nefarious needs. Which he is.
What has he done?
After the meteorite crashes into the Tokyo Bay area, Fujioka storms a laboratory with his army, the Ground Self-defense Force. He tells the scientists that they’ll be executed if they leave, and kills one who walks up to him, just so he can have them supply electricity for his electric barriers following Tokyo’s blackout. Once the zombies start attacking, Fujioka forms the Human Hunter unit, a squad of soldiers who roam Tokyo and kill both zombies and survivors. Now at this point, it’s established that just about every refugee in the movie is infected with the virus, turning into a zombie should they die. Captain Kikihara wants to bring some innocent refugees to safety, but because they have the virus inside of them, Fujioka tries to have them all killed so that he can keep the truth about the virus from spreading, fearing it would ruin Tokyo’s reputation as a powerful country.
Though if he fails, Fujioka has a backup plan. A massive one.
Capturing refugees from their camps, Fujioka experiments on them with high doses of cosmo-amphetamine, turning them into zombies. The ones who couldn’t stand these high doses are kept in his underground asylum (which houses a lot of zombies, with scars and cuts on their faces to boot). Fujioka does all this because he wants to create a powerful army comprised of loyal zombies that are able to have their brains intact, while also brainwashing refugees and SDF soldiers to serve as his private militia and infecting them as well. Should Fujioka’s plan to kill the survivors fail, Fujioka plans to unleash his new army and start another World War to claim Japan’s dominance over the entire world, hoping to serve as the country’s new ruler should it go smoothly.
Keiko finds out about all of this from a soldier who went through the torturous experiments. When Keiko tries to foil his plans, Fujioka tries to manipulate her into becoming his right hand man, but once she refuses, Fujioka realizes that he can just kill her and make her a zombie soldier, which he tries to do. But that doesn’t work, as Keiko paralyzes him and shoves a grenade into his mouth, killing him for good.
Redeeming Qualities?
He very much believes Japan to be a powerful country and wants to protect it at all cost, though he sounds more like a delusional nationalist who cares more about how powerful his country is rather than anybody else. The fact that he thinks that there should be a new leader, is willing to start a war to protect his country’s reputation, and the fact that he wants to serve as the new Japan’s new leader shows that he’s really only in this for power.
Heinousness?
The only real villain, so yeah.
Conclusion
I view him as a possible keep.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Jul 23rd 2019 at 7:51:06 AM
It's Spooky Month!

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Jul 22nd 2019 at 11:42:41 AM
Just imagine something here.