During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
So... I think I found one nasty son of a bitch in Classical Mythology. Who I'm talking about?
Atreus. Being Tantalus's grandson certainly helps.
Who is Atreus? What has he done?
Pelops and Hippodamia had many sons; two of them were Atreus and Thyestes. Depending on myth versions, they murdered Chrysippus, who was their half-brother. Because of the murder, Hippodamia, Atreus, and Thyestes were banished to Mycenae, where Hippodamia is said to have hanged herself.
Atreus vowed to sacrifice his best lamb to Artemis. Upon searching his flock, however, Atreus discovered a golden lamb which he gave to his wife, Aerope, to hide from the goddess. She gave it to Thyestes, her lover and Atreus' brother, who then convinced Atreus to agree that whoever had the lamb should be king. Thyestes produced the lamb and claimed the throne. Beforehand, Atreus had killed Aerope (versions differ but he ultimately kills her one way or another).
Atreus retook the throne using advice he received from Hermes. Thyestes agreed to give the kingdom back when the sun moved backwards in the sky, a feat that Zeus accomplished. Atreus retook the throne and banished Thyestes.
Atreus then learned of Thyestes' and Aerope's adultery and plotted revenge. He killed Thyestes' sons and cooked them, save their hands and feet. He tricked Thyestes into eating the flesh of all of his own sons and then taunted him with their hands and feet. Thyestes was forced into exile for eating the flesh of a human. Yeah, for something he had no knowledge of until Atreus' Evil Gloating. Thyestes responded by asking an oracle what to do, who advised him to have a son by his daughter, Pelopia, who would then kill Atreus. However, when Aegisthus was first born, he was abandoned by his mother who was ashamed of the incestuous act. A shepherd found the infant Aegisthus and gave him to Atreus, who raised him as his own son. Only as he entered adulthood did Thyestes reveal the truth to Aegisthus, that he was both father and grandfather to the boy. Aegisthus then killed Atreus.
Heinousness?
In the House of Atreus, a family full of nasty fuckers (Agamemnon reluctantly sacrificed his daughter, Melenaus killed his uncle alongside Agamemnon, Orestes killed his mother and Aegisthus in revenge for them killing his father, Aegisthus killed Agamemnon and Tantalus is a CM), Atreus is really not that different from his grandfather: killing your unfaithful wife, cutting your bro's sons in pieces and giving them to your brother to eat, even though you retook power from him. That's whole new levels of Disproportionate Retribution.
Ultimately, not even Tantalus left such an effect on his family like Atreus. Atreus's actions indirectly led to Menelaus and Agamemnon killing Thyestes, Aegisthus helping Clytemnestra in killing Agamemnon and Orestus killing Agamemnon's killers.
Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities?
Agamemnon and Ménélas, his sons, did avenge him by killing Thyestes and by banishing his son, implying that they loved him. But how Atreus felt towards them wasn't touched upon. Up to you if it's too much of a mitigating factor.
When Hippodamia ordered him and Thyestus to kill their half-brother, they did... But out of jealousy towards half-bro, not of love for ol' mama. On top of that, the whole story is Depending on the Writer, with two other versions existing : in one he killed himself after having been raped by his tutor, and in another, Hippodamia personally killed him. So yeah. Again, up to you if it's too much of a mitigating factor.
As for Freudian Excuse... Well, Thyestes did trick him into leaving his kingdom in order to take power and his wife cheated on him with Thyestes and helped the latter banish Atreus. But Atreus's response, as mentioned above, is whole new levels of Disproportionate Retribution and Revenge by Proxy : killing (or casting in the sea, with no implications she survived) your wife, killing your bro's sons and giving them to him to eat and banishing him for eating human parts? Yeah, that's not exactly how normal people would react. Can't blame Thyestes and Aegisthus for wanting revenge.
Verdict ?
Leaning
, but I'll let you guys decide.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 18th 2019 at 3:46:10 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Honestly, I don't know (it's been only months since I've been here) so I can't tell.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Up there buddy. (The user's name is Georgie Enkoom) It's about someone from Greek Mythology
That being said, abstain because Greek Mythology has a high heinous standard
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Sky, do a search and if nothing comes up, the answer's probably no. You don't have to ask that for so many works.
I'm giving a nay to Atreus...for resources and with the standard of his house, there is far, far, FAR too much effed up shit going on for anyone to stick out to me much. Tantalus earns a spot because he was pulling this to the gods themselves.
Perhaps it's just me, but I really don't see how pulling this in front of the gods is a reason for Tantalus earn a spot. It just screams Too Dumb to Live and that's all.
Especially when Tantalus "just" killed his own son, while Atreus slaughtered every son Thyestes ever had.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 18th 2019 at 3:22:35 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Tantalus (and Lycaon) also count because they violated xenia, a MAJOR taboo in Ancient Greece.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 18th 2019 at 3:40:14 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Yeah. And he responded by killing her, and killing her and his brother's kid sons. You know the rest.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 18th 2019 at 3:50:49 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Switching to
Atreus.
Alright, I just rewatched a movie, and believe that the villain is worthy of consideration.
What is the work?
Detention is a 2011 Horror Comedy starring Shanley Caswell and Josh Hutcherson.
Riley Jones hates her life in Grizzly Lake. The boy with whom she is infatuated, Clapton Davis, is dating her former best friend Ione Rose. Additionally, she has to put up with the unwanted advances of Sander Sanderson, one of Clapton's friends.
Things get worse for Riley when an assailant wearing the mask of in-universe horror icon CinderHella attacks her multiple times.
Meanwhile, Two of the group's fellow students are murdered, Alpha Bitch Taylor Fisher, and Jerk Jock Billy Nolan.
Complicating matters, someone has gone to 1992 in order to cause an explosion that will wipe out the world as they know it (Grizzly Lake).
It turns out that Sander, tired of being rejected by Riley, has gone to the past in order to convince a young Karl Verge to blow up Grizzly Lake, exploiting the fact that Verge has been rejected by Sloan, Ione's mother, whose body turns out to be occupied by Ione and vice versa.
Furthermore, Sander is the assailant responsible for the attacks on Riley, as well as the murders of Billy and Taylor.
Who is Sander Sanderson, and what has he done?
Sander Sanderson is introduced as Riley's Abhorrent Admirer, repeatedly making unwanted advances. Sander initially seems friendly with Clapton. Additionally, when Riley is jealous of Clapton and Ione, she finally decides to humor him at his house party, and he plays along.
But it all turns out to be a sham.
Sander turns out to be the murderer of Billy and Taylor, presumably having killed them because they represent what he doesn't like about Grizzly Lake.
Furthermore, after murdering Gord, a Canadian exchange student, and present day Verge, Sander goes back to 1992 in order to have Verge blow the whole of Grizzly Lake sky high using classroom materials. Grizzly Lake is a town with at least hundreds of people.
When Riley and Clapton intervene by having Ione, in Sloan's body, ask young Verge to the prom, Sander attempts to detonate the bomb himself, only for it to blow him to bits.
In the new timeline resulting from Clapton and Riley's actions, Sander still succeeds at killing Billy and Taylor, and upon seeing Riley and Clapton as a couple, tries to kill them both, killing his classmate Alexis when she walks in on the attempt trying to coax him into sex. Sander ends up dying when the magnetic pull of the Grizzly Bear time machine drags him by the axe to his death.
Heinousness?
Sander attempts genocide on an entire town based on the fact that he hates all of its inhabitants, coupled with Riley's rejection. Verge attempted to blow up the classroom before, but it blew up in his face, until Sander interfered, increasing the scale of destruction.
While the plant based alien invasion led by Gord at the movie's end is presumably going to be on a similar scale, he has more resources than Sander does, and wants vengeance on vegans for eating his kin.
Additionally, even in the changed timeline, Sander manages to kill 3 people, and attempts to kill 2 more multiple times.
Freudian Excuse? Mitigating factors?
Sander does not seem to be well liked, but that could never justify the scale of destruction he attempts to cause, even if it ends up being undone.
This is a horror-comedy, but Sander's true personality, and his actions, regardless of any comedy connected to him, are played with the proper gravity befitting someone who attempts mass murder and murder in general.
None of his interactions with his parents are shown, and there is no indication whether he cares about them. He does seem to care about not getting his house too dirty, but that doesn't indicate anything.
Verdict?
I'm abstaining on this one, but regardless of whether he qualifies, he is definitely one of the most petty villains in the Horror-Comedy Genre.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:58:32 AM

in Fairness, He was simply saying he Agreed with the Consensus he counted Based on stuff he read about the villain, as opposed to just saying "Villains wiki lists this guy as Pure evil but he isn't listed as a CM on here, why?"
Things are really about to get Fun around here