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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17201: Sep 29th 2013 at 1:42:35 AM

At the risk of sounding pushy, I got only one response (the post below, with which I disagree) to this query.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#17202: Sep 29th 2013 at 2:15:06 AM

OT I know, but which 4 slasher films launched the genre? Friday the 13th, Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street, and...?
EDIT: Ah, nevermind, TX Chainsaw,

edited 29th Sep '13 2:26:46 AM by ACW

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#17203: Sep 29th 2013 at 2:22:13 AM

[up][up][up]It means that "the only think Bern can do to satisfy herself is to spread misery" thing is bullshit and that her Freudian Excuse isn't so great as to justify every last atrocity that she commits. She's not morally broken— her agency isn't impaired by what she's been through— she even acknowledges that what she's doing is doing is evil with her "cruelest witch in the world" shtick, it's just that she just doesn't care. Sure, I suppose that one person put under the same miserable circumstances can turn out different, but that sure as hell doesn't mean she can't turn into a Complete Monster.

edited 29th Sep '13 2:23:43 AM by AquaRegia

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#17204: Sep 29th 2013 at 4:30:46 AM

[up]It's not the only thing she can do; it's the only thing she knows might help.

But following that logic, no Freudian Excuse wouldn't be enough to justify anything when it comes to this trope. Anyone who might qualify would be so far beyond what would be possible to justify with it that we might as well scrap Freudian Excuse as a factor counting against a Complete Monster.

Check out my fanfiction!
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#17205: Sep 29th 2013 at 4:54:48 AM

[up]Seconding this opinion. Just because two people can get subjected to the same experience and wind up differently doesn't disqualify the argument.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#17206: Sep 29th 2013 at 5:22:18 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] I agree with cutting all the images that are either duplicates or don`t illustrate the trope.

[tup] for Hopkins and Chucky.

On the Transformers examples I vote cut on Star Sabre. For Pharma I think he could count. The thing about the portal is somewhat ambiguous though and I still don`t quite understand the thing about the entity taking him there.

edited 29th Sep '13 5:30:28 AM by TommyFresh

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17207: Sep 29th 2013 at 6:19:08 AM

Freudian Excuse? I wasn't trying to give Bern a reason for being evil. All I said was that she tried to put characters in the same predicament that she's been through. Because of her time in the "Groundhog Day" Loop, you'd expect her to be merciful on the casts. However, she's shown to cause all the pain and misery in the visual novels and no amount of supposed redeeming factors can save her from this trope.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#17208: Sep 29th 2013 at 6:23:10 AM

[up]Yeah I'm not following your logic here; she went through a time loop and that's supposed to make her automatically sympathise with anyone who went throug the same thing?

I don't even know what the damn hell work you're talking about, I can just tell that your argument isn't holding up well. Just because someone goes through something that leaves a physical scar doesn't mean that they automatically feel sympathy with everyone that's gone through the same.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#17209: Sep 29th 2013 at 6:30:21 AM

Here's the work: When They Cry
Also, why are we getting rid of duplicate images?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17210: Sep 29th 2013 at 6:35:52 AM

The work is Umineko When They Cry, for your information. Also, didn't Chucky murder Brittany Spears in a comedic way in the fifth film of the series.

edited 29th Sep '13 6:45:35 AM by AustinDR

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17211: Sep 29th 2013 at 6:57:18 AM

Monster.When They Cry is the page, though. I've switched in the Bernkastel writeup with less spoiler tags - I see still some dispute.

Also, ImageLinks.Complete Monster still needs input - for the record, I am looking whether we keep Sidious (just casting lightning), Vidal (doesn't show the trope/JAFAAC), Roark (duplication) and Mephiles (bad quality, and apparently not an example) or no.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#17212: Sep 29th 2013 at 7:03:46 AM

We're getting rid of duplicate images because we really should only be using an image once, since the general idea behind image links is we are sending a troper off to look at something that isn't on the site already. Kinda pointless if it's already on the site.

With regards to Umineko When They Cry; from a quick glance over the premise is being forced to releive getting murdered over and over again, correct? Well if this Bern had gone through that then that would not do wonders for ones' mental health. So what did that experience do to her, in plain english.

Also the line "and no amount of supposed redeeming factors can save her from this trope" troubles me greatly. If she has redeeming factors she does not count, period. That you are implying otherwise is very concerning since that has been an instant disqualification since the very beginning.

edited 29th Sep '13 7:18:59 AM by Shaoken

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#17213: Sep 29th 2013 at 8:34:22 AM

Speaking of image links, could we move the one of Aizen to the Bleach page, and move the current one to the image links.

EDIT: The Johan picture is also a duplicate.

edited 30th Sep '13 6:13:59 AM by randomtroper89

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17214: Sep 29th 2013 at 9:56:14 AM

Austin DR: As I have been pointing out quite incessantly, one film in the series became comedy, then the next film that just came out took it back to completely serious horror. Nightmare on Elm street did basically the same thing, and Scream has always had the comedic element to it.

Also, any votes on Stearne as well? I think Hopkins is a "no-brainer CM" but Stearne is one I'd like to have discussion on.

edited 29th Sep '13 9:57:38 AM by Lightysnake

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17216: Sep 29th 2013 at 11:37:14 AM

Sorry if my tone sounded poor there, it wasn't my intent. I just mean that one film in the series was absolute comedy(though Chucky killing his wife and attempting to murder his son isn't played for it), but Chucky's still devoid of redeeming qualities and his actions are still quite nasty.

The clincher for me is the newest film dives far away from comedy into a straight up horror piece where Chucky is portrayed as utterly terrifying. Plus, he gets a flashback where we see him in action as a human

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17217: Sep 29th 2013 at 11:49:36 AM

It's okay. Didn't mean to irritate you with my question.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17218: Sep 29th 2013 at 11:51:38 AM

You didn't, I just didn't mean to come across as being irritated

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#17219: Sep 29th 2013 at 12:07:47 PM

@Tommy Fresh: I just wrote about the entity grabbing Pharma because that means we'll likely see him return. I assume it could pull him into the portal because he was dead, and thus the judgement shield couldn't affect him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17220: Sep 29th 2013 at 12:13:30 PM

He may but it seems his arc is done for now so theres no issue about discussing or listing him in my opinion

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#17221: Sep 29th 2013 at 12:23:49 PM

[up][up]Alright then. I think he probably counts.

AnewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#17222: Sep 29th 2013 at 12:42:38 PM

Does anyone have confirmation on the Dangan Ronpa example I brought up a while back?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17223: Sep 29th 2013 at 1:24:35 PM

For those who don't know the series, can you elaborate on the deeds/evil?

edited 29th Sep '13 1:56:37 PM by Lightysnake

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#17224: Sep 29th 2013 at 2:45:53 PM

[up] Monokuma is a scary looking two-toned teddy bear who is the sadistic headmaster of this high school of despair. He's responsible for all the students living out this sick murder mystery "game" in which students kill one another and the culprits end up getting executed in horrific ways. He does all this For the Evulz to bring everyone despair, which he gets off on. Also, the world outside the school is post-apocalyptic due to an ultimate despair-inducing incident this villain caused, all surviving humans are out destroying each other, and if there's any glimmer of hope left, Monokuma hopes to expunge it because he's broadcasting the student's game on live TV. Monokuma is actually a puppet/split personality of the mastermind, Junko Enoshima, who is pretty much Kefka or the Joker in the body of a teenage girl, and who killed her own twin sister during a Twin Switch as part of her master plan. She wants to bring despair to the whole world for shits and giggles, and is such a despair fetishist that she gets a thrill out of her own eventual failure and self-execution. That's the most I could summarize: you'd have to look up the character if you want to get any more that I might have missed. I think it's pretty unambiguous that this is an example, though.

edited 29th Sep '13 2:47:12 PM by ANewMan

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010

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