During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to Wise, but abstain on Hecuba.
Speaking of candidates like, I think I'm going to save the EP I have for awhile.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadIf Shao's quote goes to the main quotes page, I could live with that.
Here's a Cavendish rewrite. Not to mention, it's John Reid, not just Reid.
- The Lone Ranger: Butch Cavendish shows why he is rumored to be a Wendigo when, after gunning down John Reid's brother Dan, Butch cuts out his heart and eats it. Butch uses fear to oppress any hint of rebellion and will kill at any hint of complaint At one point, he even kills a laborer for nothing more than saying the entrance of a cave he wanted entry to was blocked. Butch conspires to start a war with, and wipe out the Comanche people for the silver in the mines by leading attacks on innocent people in settlements, framing the Comanche. In the past, when the Comanche saved Butch's life, he repaid them by slaughtering them, earning Tonto's undying hatred.
Edited by ACW on Jul 4th 2019 at 9:03:07 AM
As for Dickson, I'm fine either way, but like I told 43, I'm wondering if him being The Starscream isn't worth keeping.
Now, here's Wise's partner in crime Jagga, the Big Bad Wannabe of the Entotsu arc.
666 Satan is a Shōnen manga written by Seishi Kishimoto.
The story takes place in a world vaguely similar to Earth, except that there are mysterious objects with special powers called O-Parts scattered across the globe. Usually, those objects can be found in some of the numerous ruins left by an ancient civilization from before mankind existed. The descendants of this now-extinct civilization are the only one capable of using the O-Parts' powers, and are called the O. P. T. (for "O-Part Tactitiens").
Oh, and there are also ten demons and ten angels (not all of whom are good guys) originating from the two Kabbalah who are roaming freely in the planet (some of which are sealed within humans).
The planet is ruled by the Stea government, which collects the most powerful O-Parts and is secretly trying to capture the ten angels in order to insert them back within their Kabbalah and obtain unimaginable powers.
Its primary enemy is a criminal organization known as Zenom, which traffics powerful O-Parts and is trying to capture the ten demons in order to insert them back within their Kabbalah and obtain unimaginable powers.
The manga follows the adventures of Jio Freed, a 13 years old OPT who wants to Take Over the World and is actually none other than the host of Satan himself, and his friend Ruby Crescent, a 15 years old treasure hunter in search of the Legendary O-Part. During their quests, they are eventually joined by new friends such as Ball and Kirin. Of course, they are also confronted to plenty of villains, whether they are evil humans, evil O.P.T.s, Zenom members, corrupt Stea agents, angels or demons.
How to describe Jagga? Well, he’s basically Jabba the Hutt if he was a human being. No, seriously, he got everything: He's a morbidly obese crime boss who enjoys kidnapping the main female character to force her into Go-Go Enslavement, and is a disgusting Villainous Glutton to boot. Heck, even their names are nearly identical!
Years ago, Jagga was an extremely corrupt and power-hungry officer of the Stea government. Unlike many other high-ranking members, he was a normal human rather than an OPT.
At one point, he heard of the discovery of a lithograph indicating that an immensely powerful O-Part called Mekisis could be hidden under the city of Entotsu. Interested by the god-like powers it could give him, Jagga decided to go to Entotsu, where he eliminated the current commander and took control of the city. Since he was impatient to find Mekisis, he forced the entire population of the city, including young children, to participate in the excavations.
One day, the professor Browny Schultz, a member of the criminal organization Zenom who infiltrated Stea, came to Entotsu and offered Jagga an experimental medicine that could turn him into an OPT. Unsurprisingly given his obsession with power, Jagga gladly agreed to use the medicine, unfortunately it had the side-effect of causing him to have occasional crazy periods during which he can become murderous... However, this didn't bother him at all, and he kept using the medicine regularly in order to become as powerful as an OPT.
To ensure the citizens' subservience, he also hired the services of Wise Yuri, another member of Zenom known for being very dangerous and sadistic. Every weeks or so, Wise and his henchmen attacked the city and endangered the population, and each time Jagga sent soldiers to make them flee. This way, the citizens became dependent on Jagga's "protection", allowing him to keep the city under his iron-fisted rule.
During the years that followed, all the citizens of Entotsu (again, children included) were forced to work like slaves while being constantly abused by Jagga's soldiers. In order to prevent rebellions, Jagga only provided the workers with weak steam engines for digging, which caused the city to become highly polluted and covered with steam. In results, many citizens became severely sick, but this didn't exempted any of them from working.
Every time some of the citizens tried to escape from the city, they were promptly executed, and when strangers came to the city, they always ended up being captured and forced to work with the others. Eventually, several citizens decided to form a resistance movement to free all the inhabitants of the city and put an end to Jagga's cruel reign. Meanwhile, the criminals of Zenom hired by Jagga continued to attack Entotsu every now and then to keep up the masquerade.
Towards the beginning of the manga, Jio Freed, a 13 year old OPT, and Ruby Crescent, a 15 years old treasure hunter, come to Entotsu during the course of their adventures. Shortly after arriving in the city, they see a public announcement from Jagga saying his soldiers have once again stopped one of Zenom's attacks earlier that day, and that the citizens should be thankful and keep working in good spirits. Soon, Jio and Ruby learn of what's going on in this city, and Ruby is eventually captured by some of Jagga's soldiers while Jio encounters some members of the resistance.
Ruby is brought to Jagga, who is busy eating living animals. Seeing the young woman, he has her be undressed almost naked and tied to a pole for his perverted entertainment. After ogling her for some time, he proposes her to stay by his side, but she vehemently refuses and insults him. Unfortunately, Jagga subsequently enters in one of his crazy periods, and tries to eat Ruby. Browny Schultz sends a few guards to stop him, causing Jagga to attack them as well and to devour the head of one of them. They finally manage to subdue him, and Browny gives him medicine to bring him back to his normal state. Then, Jagga spits the guard's head in disgust, without giving a damn about his death, and orders the horrified Ruby to be thrown in the dungeon with his other prisoners for now, as he finds her annoying. While leaving her almost naked, of course.
Soon after, Jagga has a meeting with Wise during which Jagga gives him his pay of the week for what he did earlier. As the two start insulting the city's inhabitants for their stupidity, suddenly they spot Jio and Ball (another 13 years old boy, and a member of the resistance), who got into Jagga's mansion to spy on them and rescue Ruby. Jagga immediately orders Wise to kill them both, much to his delight. Wise beats the kids in brutal ways, which is something Jagga looks awfully pleased to watch. However, they eventually manage to escape thanks to a distraction, greatly disappointing Jagga.
A few days later, Jagga learns that Mekisis has been found. As they are the only ones who can still pose problems, Jagga charges Wise to eliminate every members of the resistance. Therefore, Wise subsequently sends his henchmen in the streets to kill anyone they think is suspect.
Afterward, Jagga comes to contemplate Mekisis, and starts jubilating like an excited psycho at the idea that he's going to use it to become a god and kill anyone he wants. Then, he takes control of the O-Part, becomes even more psychotically excited, and orders Browny to prepare its activation, threatening to kill him if he doesn't hurry. Impatient to kill people with his new god-like powers, Jagga quickly uses Mekisis to slaughter all the people around in horrible ways, slaves and soldiers alike, all the while laughing maniacally.
Immediately after, Jagga decides to attack the entire city in order to continue his fun. With the powers of Mekisis, he wipes out large parts of the city, killing countless civilians and soldiers in the process (note that in addition of his own soldiers, the Zenom henchmen he hired are still present in the city as well, but he doesn't care if they all die).
Shortly after, he makes one last public announcement to the population in which he declares that from now on, he's a god, and as such he's going to destroy the city, subjugate the Stea government and conquer the whole world. He also orders the citizens to kneel before the new god and starts jubilating like a maniac more than ever. However, he then realizes that Mekisis is slowly absorbing him.
Suddenly, Wise arrives and reveals he has always intended to betray him and steal Mekisis. Being unable to move, Jagga orders Browny to shoot Wise, but he refuses as they're working together. The professor also reveals to Jagga that his medicine was gradually damaging his body, and that he only has one month left to live at most, fortunately before dying he could still be useful for something, as Mekisis can become even more powerful by absorbing someone particularly evil like him. Jagga tries to threaten them one last time by telling them he's a god, but they're unimpressed and simply watch him being slowly consumed by Mekisis, while he's pathetically begging for help.
I'm willing to bet that nobody's going to mourn him.
The main possible issue is the fact that Jagga is using a medicine that has some bad effects on his sanity... However, I don't think that disqualifies him at all. He was a clearly a corrupt and power-hungry bastard willing to commit murders and work with criminals from the beginning. There is a flashback showing that he only met professor Browny, the guy who gave him the medicine, after becoming the ruler of Entotsu, which means he already assassinated the former ruler and enslaved the population before using any medicine.
His ephebophilia tendencies don't seem to be a side-effect of the medicine either, but rather something that is entirely his own.
In addition, it's clear that he still has some lucidity outside of his crazy periods, and yet he keeps using the medicine, knowing full well that it causes him to become a danger to his entourage. But for him, obtaining more powers is more important than the lives of others. Heck, he started using the medicine in the first place because he's always been obsessed with powers.
Not to mention the fact that, when he was sacrificed to Mekisis, Wise notes that Jagga has an exceptionally evil heart, meaning that the medicine has nothing to do with it, Jagga is really pure evil by nature.
BTW, I can assure you his use of the medicine is never, ever portrayed as a legitimate excuse for his crimes. Ever.
I don’t think so.
I doubt he even knows what this is…
While 666 Satan has a pretty high heinous standard, and the guy was merely a Big Bad Wannabe, Jagga still manages to stand out as one of the most awful human beings of the manga. His treatment of the citizens of Entotsu is absolutely horrible, even for this manga (Ikaros himself, who was a dictator as well, didn't seem to treat his citizens as terribly as him, and the guy was a freakin' demon!). I mean, forcing the entire population of his city, including children, oldsters, injured and sick people, plus captured strangers, to work like slaves 24/7 throughout their lives while allowing the guards to brutally punish them if they don't do their job properly and to execute them if they try to escape? This is truly monstrous.
Furthermore, there is also what he did to Ruby, who was just a 15 years old girl... and it's implied he was planning to do much more than that with her, he even proposed her to become his spouse... Let us call it what it is, the guy is an ephebophile, and believe me when I say this is quite unique for this manga, none of the other characters ever did something comparable to that (well, there was a transvestite who tried to kiss both Jio and Ball during a later arc, but this was Played for Laughs and he didn't go too far).
If you add to that his numerous murders (which include some of his allies), his employment of dangerous criminals to attack his own city, and finally his attempt to annihilate all of Entotsu (which would have killed all his citizens, his soldiers, and his allies from Zenom) and conquer the entire world, I think Jagga did largely enough in terms of crimes to qualify.
A big
Edited by Mimic45 on Jul 4th 2019 at 3:59:29 PM
@acw: Ive recently learned that Taking Over Heaven is a thing. I think that'll work for zadkiel's entry in Ghost rider (Kinda impressive. Hes an angel far worse then most of marvel's demon lords).
Theres also a variation in Hell Invades Heaven which should work for Lord Olivier.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 4th 2019 at 8:14:07 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

i need to think on Wise... i might say tentative yes for now but given you want to propose more candidates in O Parts Hunter... I'll wait. For now I abstain but lean a weak yeah... Keep in mind resource are not a get out of a jail free card.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."