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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#169952: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:01:50 PM

@Lighty The question is "should we approve them and if not why?"

BTW since I was caught up in you-know-what I haven't got an answer to my question:

"I'm gonna consider doing a villain for a movie of a big time anime franchise. (I'm not gonna say it since I don't wanna be spoiled.) Should I wait after the DVDs are released which is when people outside Japan can be exposed it, or should I just do it now because it already had a theatrical release at all (though only in Japan)?"

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#169953: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:05:11 PM

I mean, it should be fine with the theatrical release, as long s someone else doesn't have it reserved.

Draxterrus An Eldritch Troper Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
An Eldritch Troper
#169954: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:06:34 PM

[up][up][up] Rewording of Bucky-Wise's entry, covering up Murai and Cliff Higgins' entries due to spoilers.

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#169955: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:07:09 PM

Lighty, it's one that is not reserved but, I'll just do it after the DVD release anyways.

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#169957: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:12:59 PM

@Lighty Done.

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#169958: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:16:41 PM

Quote for Vuk from Dark Phoenix.

“Your lives mean nothing. Your world will be ours.”

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#169959: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:18:03 PM

@k410ren Seems a little genericky but [tup] to the quote. Where will the quote be?

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#169960: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:18:54 PM

What do you mean?

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#169961: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:20:16 PM

No to the quote, doesn't tell enough.

FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#169962: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:21:15 PM

I was gonna say "It can be in the quote page (we have a thread for that) but it can also be in the CM page for the next-best thing" but Lightysnake ninja'd me again. BTW Lighty did you get the PM I sent you?

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Jun 27th 2019 at 11:22:00 AM

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#169965: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:03:11 PM

Jeesh... Did I miss anything?

As far as EP goes... Once I finished the Guilty Crown fanfic that I read, I'll report it to you guys.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#169966: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:14:09 PM

Unsure about doing an EP for a certain candidate in Men in Black: International, so I'm gonna do a kind of informal one right now instead:

The Twins who are aliens (don't remember what they're called) arrive on Earth, vaporize/melt a handyman and take his form, kill an alien who has possession of the super weapon/Mac Guffin, kill Pawny's entire alien race except for him and then try to kill H and M only to both be killed by High-T (Liam Neeson). They sought the weapon not to destroy other worlds, but just to make sure they could protect their own (probably from the Hive).

Riza is an alien arms dealer who is said to have done a lot of shady stuff, but we never really see any of it, only hear of it.

C (Rafe Spall, Eli Mills himself) is not the obvious traitor, but it's technically not the other obvious option High-T (more on that in a bit).

The Hive is an alien race apparently (and not one alien as I originally thought) seeking the weapon to destroy multiple worlds for no real good reason at all (they're not a GDV species though). When confronted by H and High-T, they possess High-T, turn him into one of them and neutralize H so he remembers none of it. They also vaporize the Twins through High-T as I said before. High-T is pretty much a prisoner/tool used by them and he ends up killed when M successfully vaporizes him and the rest of the Hive with the weapon. Now if they're identified as a race and not as an individual, they can't count based on just that. I'm not sure heinousness would be an issue exactly. That said, it seems like one of the high ranking members of the Hive is the one who possessed/imitated High-T and seems to be an individual all their own, so that may mean they could count just based on that singling them out.

Villains Wiki has him as one Hive member. My concerns are that we don't see much of the Hive throughout the movie and that the Twins came off as more heinous, but again, they're trying to save their world and the Hive is trying to destroy them all. The Hive member has the Twins and High-T as victims and the planned genocide of multiple worlds, so then again, that all might be enough to warrant a [tup]. I wanted the opinion of the thread through before trying an EP for "Hive-T" (haha, I'm surprised the movie never called him that officially or unofficially).

I'll also say he does just enough compared to Serleena (who may count pending analysis) and Boris as well.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 27th 2019 at 9:15:33 AM

FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#169967: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:26:06 PM

I made a thread, available here. Now you have somewhere separate (just like the quote thread) to talk about you-know-what instead of here.

If you need me, I'm gonna go get some sleep now.

Edit: the MiB International effortpost could use some work, but I'm leaning [tup] for the timebeing.

Edit 2: You're welcome, Lighty.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Jun 27th 2019 at 12:27:10 PM

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
PureGrainAlkaSeltzer The Lord Of Walruses from 1200 Pennsylvania Ave Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
The Lord Of Walruses
#169968: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:41:22 PM

[tup] to everyone from John Bunting to here, but [tdown] to Raidou.

[up][up] If The hive really is one individual, then it may count, but I haven’t seen the movie, so I can’t really add anything.

I have no idea what I am doing
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#169969: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:42:57 PM

With the Hive, if there a Hive mind of sorts I think we could consider them one charachter?

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 27th 2019 at 9:43:53 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#169970: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:50:37 PM

Also, sparing H by neutralizing him is not redeeming. He does it to sell his cover and make everyone think the Hive is gone. Also, it causes H to become more reckless and impulsive and somewhat disgraced too.

I got the strong sense that the Hive was treated as an individual and even if it wasn’t, the one who becomes High-T and all the others don’t seem to actually care about each other. Plus, one could argue the Hive’s threat is what drives the Twins' actions throughout the movie.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 27th 2019 at 10:00:33 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#169971: Jun 27th 2019 at 10:00:11 PM

I have real concerns this is enough of an individual.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#169972: Jun 27th 2019 at 10:02:08 PM

[up]I just saw the movie last weekend, but it would help if someone else who saw it could comment on it too. The bit about Hive Mind is a good argument though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 27th 2019 at 10:20:37 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#169973: Jun 27th 2019 at 10:28:57 PM

Mmm...leaning towards a no because of the hive mind issue.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#169974: Jun 27th 2019 at 10:29:46 PM

Alright, thanks to Lighty to help me find this one...

What's the setting?

I think everyone here is familiar with The Twilight Zone. Rod Serling's masterpiece anthology series that started in 1959 and kickstarted a variety of material following his death—several revival series, the most recent from 2019, spin-off material, and a movie that... erm, had one of the most horrible behind-the-scenes disasters ever recorded because of the greedy incompetence of co-director John Landis—that showcased bizarre things happening to people from all walks under the sun. Noted for its powerful humanist and moralistic messages that transcended the pitfalls of the time period, I've got one from an episode that hits that right smack-dab in the centre from the original series. We've got a Nazi CM from TZ already, the despicable black-uniformed animal Gunther Lutze. Who could possibly be worse than him?

None other than old Adolf.

Who is Adolf Hitler? What has he done?

So, from the season 4 episode He's Alive, we follow Peter Vollmer, played by a then-young Dennis Hopper. Peter is a pathetic and uncharismatic neo-Nazi attempting and failing to hold neo-Nazi rallies, helped by his only friend, the Jewish Ernst who disparages Peter's rhetoric but keeps after him in pity anyways. What Peter needs is a compelling force to get him on his feet... and no sooner than he needs one does an enigmatic, shadowy man with a German accent and a barely-hidden Chaplin-stache reveal himself. Said shadowy man is, of course, the ghost of the Fuehrer back decades after he killed millions in the Holocaust, thriving on hate and prejudice, and he's attached to Peter, giving him advice on how to properly rally crowds and spread his messages of hate and libel. Within days, Peter is already pulling a committed following.

Hitler's ambitions, though, go beyond encouraging one little brat Nazi to be his new mouthpiece. Hitler instructs Peter to murder one of his own men, Nick, to make a martyr out of him and frame the targets of his prejudice, cajoling Peter into having Nick assassinated and drumming up more and more support for his cause. When Ernst derides and publicly ridicules Peter, Hitler finally steps out of the shadows when Peter calls him out for hiding behind them: "I was writing and delivering speeches decades before you could read or understand them! I was fighting battles when your only struggle was to climb out of a womb! I was taking over the world when your universe was a crib! And as for being in darkness, Mr. Vollmer... I invented darkness!"

Hitler's intent is simple. With Peter as his new pawn and tool, Hitler intends to spark an idea which will turn into a force; an idea that will birth a new Reich in earnest, another Holocaust and all the horrors of such repeating themselves. Hitler stops advising Peter and starts ordering him, having him murder Ernst—his own father figure—to once and for all destroy any sentiment in him and make him of "steel." Peter accomplishes the task swimmingly, but unfortunately (for him) Reality Ensues and the police catch up with Peter for the murders, gunning him down as he tries to hide. Not dissuaded in the slightest, Hitler stalks off to continue spreading all the ideas of hatred that made the Holocaust the living nightmare we all know it was...

Any mitigating factors?

Honestly? None. The ambiguous nature of Hitler's revival and nature aside, Hitler is the same man he's always been; a hatemonger and a murderer of the absolute worst kind. There's not as many focus on the actual victims of the Holocaust as with Lutze, but intention is key here and Hitler is intending to create a new Reich in the USA with all the awfulness that would entail fully pointed out in Ernst's breakdown at the realization of all the death such a thing would cause. Corrupting Peter and making him murder loyal men and his own father figure compound that. In Twilight Zone, pure evil is rarely represented, but the Nazis always are and the episode points it out just as frankly as it does Deaths-Head Revisited: "All steel. All strength. But at the expense of the thing most other men have: some fragments of decency to tell them right from wrong[...] You have steel, but you have no heart."

Conclusion?

Keep him. Serling wasn't subtle about this episode mostly because he couldn't be (the dude received hate mail for vilifying Hitler—and sadly, the actual rhetoric in the episode among actual neo-Nazis has changed shockingly little).

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Jun 27th 2019 at 11:34:13 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#169975: Jun 27th 2019 at 10:30:01 PM

One post tonight now....in a tribute to the dearly departed.

What's the work?

Demon Hunter is a film from the 00s, with the hero Jake Greyman, a ward of the church who's the demon hunter...half demon, who struggles against his demonic heritage. Jake is dispatched on a mission of apocalyptic significance....a powerful demon is in town, and Jake must take a young operative named Sarah to stop him. And that demon is played by Billy Drago....enter Asmodeus.

Who is Asmodeus?

the lord of Lust, one of the original Fallen. Asmodeus arrives on earth in a reduced form with his succubus subordinate to find women strong enough to bear his demon spawn to use them to wreak havoc. Tempting others to sin and lust to damn them, Asmodeus begins targeting prostitutes. At the start of the film, he's first seen in bed with a group of women....throwing one out, and it's revealed he's raped and killed them all, as none were strong enough to bear his children..

Asmodeus begins targeting other potential women as Jake tries to track him down, always killing those around them, violating them and killing them in the process. He goes through three there, killing multiple people along the way, before he gets a fourth who he sleeps with...with her being strong enough, he also possesses her/has her soul devoured by another demon to corrupt her and set her after Jake.

We see Asmodeus drawing up the lust in her others to tempt them to fornication and damnation, before he sends his succubus minion to seduce and kill Jake, which fails, but Asmodeus curbstomps Jake in the fight, and takes Sarah for himself, gloating that Jake's soul is damned regardless and leaves him as a Cruel Mercy. He tries to rape Sarah to impregnate her, gloating how much death their child will cause....only problem? Sarah is half demon as well, and reverts to her demon side...before setting on Asmodeus and ripping out his heart to devour it, before Jake is forced to put her down.

Heinousness?

Okay, Serial Rapist, murderer, etc. Even with Sarah's sudden term, the serial killings and rapes are enough to set Asmodeus over the edge.

Mitigating Qualities?

Billy Drago having a good time count? Beyond that, no. No agency issues, as he's a Fallen Angel who was one of Lucifer's original comrades. He just relishes rapine and murder to scary degrees and while he spares Jake after crushing him, he fully admits it's only because he doesn't care if he dies then or later as he's damned anyways and can't beat it.

Conclusion?

Easy keeper. Rest in peace, Mr. Drago

And yea to Hitler.


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