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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16851: Sep 20th 2013 at 4:10:17 PM

He's no more that than Dracula was, honestly. He's not there just because he's evil, look at his interaction with Hutton when he displays character and cunning. His loading the rats also demonstrates further intellect.

If we qualified Dracula, I see no reason Orlok shouldn't qualify. Not to mention he was among the first major examples of a vampire in cinema and we tend to give passes to characters like that (see Michael Myers, Freddy Krueger, Dracula, etc.) I can't really think he's any different than the vast majority of entries on the list

edited 20th Sep '13 4:12:19 PM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#16852: Sep 20th 2013 at 4:39:16 PM

Myers and Krueger are different. Myers is more generic, Freddy a sadistic (albeit at times Laughably Evil) child killer.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16853: Sep 20th 2013 at 4:42:27 PM

But there's my point. Orlok has a personality. He's clever, cunning, cruel, voracious, lustful and avaricious, and I find calling him 'generic' unfair when he was really the first big movie vampire, predating Bela Lugosi as Dracula by nearly a decade.

Orlok was a massive influence on the genre and the first of his kind for cinema, and the film even gave him evil deeds that weren't in the novel.

edited 20th Sep '13 4:43:05 PM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#16855: Sep 20th 2013 at 4:51:00 PM

[tup] Moriarty from Elementary

[tup] Gauron and Gates from Full Metal Panic

[tup] Ryoval

[tup] Orlok

[tup] Vess

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#16856: Sep 20th 2013 at 4:54:22 PM

The write-ups for the Morgawr and Cree Bega look good. From what I know of the Terry Brooks 'verse they are bad by the standards of the setting and they meet our criteria.

Gates' and Gauron's entries look good. I don't see anything missing.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16857: Sep 20th 2013 at 5:02:24 PM

An absolute yes on Orlok. Have seen the movie, and he's a definite piece of work. His legions of imitators might be nos, but the man himself can stay.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#16858: Sep 20th 2013 at 5:52:33 PM

Okay, throwing out some votes.

I'm voting [tdown] for Twister, since he has a body count of one and as pointed out contains his violence to the boxing ring.

Henry from Without Remorse is an easy keep.

Orlok's an easy keep.

Oba from Jailhouse 41 I'd say cut for the moment, since it sounds like the series is a particularly dark work.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#16859: Sep 20th 2013 at 5:58:56 PM

Orlok and Gauron both get a [tup] from me.

It might be noted that Gauron does... some of the things he does because he's pretty blatantly in love with Sousuke... which opens a whole new can of worms. Note that he's perfectly evil without that, he just has a... focus.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16860: Sep 20th 2013 at 6:04:08 PM

We've discussed this before. 'In love' is a terrible term for it. Here is his love: He sees a kid, forms an obsessive, twisted, sexual fixation on him and decides to ruin his life and cause him mental anguish. "It's so pretty I want to rape it" isn't 'love'

edited 20th Sep '13 6:09:37 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16861: Sep 20th 2013 at 6:04:29 PM

[up][up]We decided a long time ago that there's a difference between being in love and being obsessed. Wanting to kill somebody (or be killed by them) and screw the corpse is not the same as actually being in love. As Lightysnake noted to me, their entire first encounter is effectively Gauron going "there's candy in my van little boy!"

For an example of a villain whose Stalker with a Crush tendencies actually do disqualify him, see Creed Diskenth of Black Cat who will kill anybody Train cares about (largely due to failure to process what caring means) but really doesn't want to hurt Train.

Creed's obsession with Train is an actual redeeming quality (in fact it's his only one). Gauron's obsession with Sousuke only drives him to be a worse person.

edited 20th Sep '13 6:07:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#16862: Sep 20th 2013 at 6:08:47 PM

I know; my point was more that it should be emphasized because it's wrong, rather than only getting a quick mention in the last sentence even though it's a major part of his characterization. Sorry for being unclear.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16863: Sep 20th 2013 at 6:21:37 PM

Oh, gotcha. No worries there.

Btw, welcome to the thread.

Just want to see, anyone have any more thoughts on the Demon Princes writeup, Kamiya, Edgler Foreman Vess or Uncle Charlie and Franz Kindler?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#16865: Sep 20th 2013 at 8:50:30 PM

The X-men entries on the Film page seem kinda Wall of Text-y.

  • Colonel William Stryker from X2: X-Men United brainwashes Nightcrawler into attempting to assassinate the President of the United States, and was also implied to have brainwashed Magneto into helping Stryker capture Professor X. He later deliberately conducts a raid on a school, kidnapping several of the students for experimentation, brainwashes Xavier and Cyclops, and uses Xavier in an attempt to wipe out Mutants across the world with a Cerebro clone. His brainwashing method? His own son. He is also the reason why Wolverine was imbedded with an adamantium-plated skeleton, the exact same procedure he subjected his second-in-command, Yuriko Oyama, through. In addition, he brainwashed the latter. In one scene, we see Yuriko start to wake up from the brainwashing, only for him to grab her and dose her up again before she can do anything. There's also the fact that the brainwashing serum leaves the victims conscious, but unable to control their bodies, which means that he was abducting innocent people and making them do horrible things and in a state to watch themselves do it! Nightcrawler actually thinks that he was possessed by a demon when it's done to him.
    • In X-Men Origins: Wolverine, shortly after assigning James Howlett and Victor Creed into Team X, he led them to a village where a mysterious meteorite was located. He had the chieftain killed when he refuses to give the location, and had some of the team attack the villagers as a result, disgusting James enough to have him quit Team X immediately. Later he has Victor Creed kill off his former unit, blackmails Kayla (Logan's girlfriend) into keeping tabs on Logan, faking her death at the hands of Victor Creed via capturing her sister (Emma Frost), tricks Logan into participating in the Weapon X program to give him the adamantium skeleton, has Creed round up and experiment on mutants to produce Weapon XI (Deadpool) and has Zero kill a farming family who took Logan in after his escape (framing him with the deed), just to recapture him. Murdered a general when the man called Stryker out on the fact that he was motivated by prejudices. Kidnaped innocent mutants other than Kayla's sister just for experiments. The Three Mile Island incident only doesn't count because it was unintentional on his part. Not that it matters on the list of deliberate malice this long already. He gets a bit of come-uppance from Kayla at the end, but escapes with his life to return in the later events of X-2.
      • X-Men: First Class shows that his father was no different, even showcasing a few of senior's despicable actions upon first learning about the very existence of mutants. He starts by keeping a mutant unlawfully detained on the grounds that "human rights" don't apply to mutants. Later he wanted to bomb the island with mutants who just saved the day (because he considers all mutants dangerous threats) even while a fellow agent was also there. The so-called justification being that the law doesn't apply to mutants and the agent was "collateral damage".
    • Even Stryker is nothing compared to Dr. Klaus Schmidt/Sebastian Shaw from X-Men: First Class: In case you're wondering why he has a German name, it's because in the beginning of the movie, he worked as a Nazi scientist for Auschwitz, and then had Erik try to move a concentration camp-coin, feeling that he had a lot of potential after witnessing him wreck a gate. It is in this scene that he also mocks the Nazi belief that blond hair and blue eyes are the superior race. Yes, that's right, he actually MOCKS what would have been considered the most heinous crime in history because he felt that the Nazi belief on a master race was purely superficial. It gets even worse in the same scene: he has some Nazi guards bring Erik's mother in, not to reunite her with her son, but to use her as leverage to make him move the coin, stating that at the count to three, if he doesn't move the coin with his abilities, he'll kill her. Erik fails to move it before three. Erik is so enraged at it that he ends up crushing everything metallic in the room, even the soldier's helmets while the soldiers are wearing it, with Schmidt actually congratulating him for this action, even when his office and lab lay in shambles.

      In addition, flashbacks that were seen via Emma Frost's telepathic abilities implied that Schmidt also subjected Erik to experimentation afterwards. It also becomes apparent later on that he plans on instigating what history will later know as the Cuban Missile Crisis to start a thermonuclear war so that the mutants will grow stronger and decimate all of the normal humans, abducting an Army Colonel and then having him to agree to the U.S. to place American nuclear missiles in Turkey, and then proceeds to blow the colonel up by absorbing a grenade blast and reflecting it back at him (then again, considering the fact that the Colonel was preparing to blackmail him via grenade and apparently was bribed to do so given his statements, the guy kinda deserved it), and he planned to manipulate the Soviet general.

      Later, after he learns that Xavier was recruiting mutants to his side, he and his Hellfire group attack the CIA building used to research mutants, recruiting Angel to his side, and also managing to murder Darwin by absorbing Havok's disc energy and force-feeding Darwin the ability, causing him to self-destruct after the latter attempted to fake defection to stop them. He then successfully manipulates (or rather, forces) the Soviet general into delivering nukes to Cuba and later to deliver them past the embargo line, even arranging for the crew to be murdered in order to ensure that it crosses, in case the crew decided to turn back. He then follows the Soviet transport tanker and planned that should something go wrong even after these anticipations, he'll attempt to absorb all of the energy from his sub's nuclear reactor to destroy Cuba, then pin the blame on the United States, to follow through with his plans to instigate World War III. Not only that, but he is also directly responsible for Erik's conversion into Magneto as well as his Start of Darkness, right when the latter managed to murder him with the very coin he tried to have him move.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#16866: Sep 20th 2013 at 8:55:00 PM

Burn it, burn it all!

Okay, to be serious for a moment, Stryker could count as a keep for X-men 2, Origins his crimes are a lot less henious and not really worth considering. His father is a easy and simple cut,and I think we agreed that Shaw would count.

But seriously, that entry needs to get burned right now because even the two valid CM candidates look terrible.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16867: Sep 20th 2013 at 8:57:46 PM

Or, you could rewrite them.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16868: Sep 20th 2013 at 9:02:19 PM

[up][up][up]Those are awful. Cut them and get somebody who has seen the film to rewrite them. Yeesh.

edited 20th Sep '13 9:02:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#16869: Sep 20th 2013 at 9:19:11 PM

[up][up]I might give it a shot, but really if we see terrible examples we do need to cut them as soon as possible. The problem is that because the pages are locked, once someone sees it on the page they assume that it's a legit example and that colours their perception of the trope.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#16870: Sep 20th 2013 at 10:20:13 PM

One argument against Movie Stryker, is he seemed to loved his wife and his wife's death seems like the basis for his hatred against mutants. I think you can argue he crossed the Moral Event Horizon, but unlike his comic book counter part, he did love someone else.

Shaw is still a good choice for a keeper, he doesn't seem to love anyone besides himself and his Well-Intentioned Extremist act seems like a facade, considering he was willing to torture one mutant and then kill another despite saying mutants should not harm other mutants. Shaw seems to use Mutant supremacy as excuse to gain power and he sees other people as tools to that end.

edited 20th Sep '13 10:25:22 PM by TheOverlord

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#16871: Sep 20th 2013 at 10:26:52 PM

So, a month ago I went over the Pretty Cure villains. Most of them were settled one way or the other, but Kawarino was never settled, mostly because I was distracted/forgot. I'm not completely sold on his inclusion, but I'm leaning toward him counting, so here's a write-up for him. Feel free to shoot me any questions or objections.

Kawarino from Yes! Pretty Cure 5 is The Dragon to Despariah, but he ends up being much worse than her. He enjoys manipulating people and crushing their dreams just because he can. The Nightmare organization may never have been a nice place, but Bloody, Kawarino's former superior, notes that Nightmare at least had teamwork before he took charge. He claims to be working for Despariah's immortality, but this seems to be just an excuse to spread despair. He mind rapes the Pretty Cure with his despair masks to turn them into Nightmare's slaves. Then he starts giving his minions the black mask, which gives them a power-up at the cost of their minds. When Hadenya and Bloody refuse to wear it, he shoves it on them anyway. He blasts Bunbee off a building when he tries to leave Nightmare. It's revealed that he was the one who tricked Nuts into opening the gates to the Palmier Kingdom, meaning he was responsible for its destruction and all its citizens becoming brainwashed employees of Nightmare. In the end, when Despariah contemplates a Heel–Face Turn, Kawarino is shocked and outraged at her before Bloody comes back to kill him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16872: Sep 20th 2013 at 10:28:43 PM

Also, I hate to say it...but it's time to cut Lono of One Hundred Bullets. His redemption has thus far shown to be genuine and it's been demonstrated he is genuinely trying to fight his dark urges, and even cares for the orphans he looks after

For the film...Cripes, I was meaning to get to those.

  • The X-men film series has, in X-men First Class brought us Klaus Schmidt in, AKA Sebastian Shaw is a Mutant supremacist who believes humans to be inferior to mutants. As a Nazi Mad Scientist, he used his position to try to find 'gifted' mutants, and upon finding a younger Erik Lensherr, he killed his mother after Erik failed to impress him with his powers, solely to motivate him, before subjecting Erik to horrible experiments. After the War, he adopts the Shaw identity and ingratiates himself to high ranking members of the government with his Hellfire Club, manipulating Russia and America alike. Shaw assaults a CIA facility, murdering every agent within, and when one of the young mutants stands up to him, Shaw, despite his creed of 'not harming his own kind,' murders him without hesitation and barely concealed enjoyment. Shaw's ultimate goal was to push Russia and America into nuclear war, allowing mutantkind to thrive in the aftermath and creating a kingdom of mutants that he himself would rule. Even when thwarted, Shaw planned to absorb all the nuclear radiation in his atomic sub and unleash it upon Cuba to destroy it personally and trigger atomic war.

edited 21st Sep '13 12:23:26 PM by Lightysnake

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#16873: Sep 20th 2013 at 10:53:22 PM

[up]Those look a lot better.

Also holy crap, the YMMV page for One Thousand Ways To Die is a train wreck. Here they are:

Complete Monster: More than one victim go beyond mere assholery:

"Guns N' Noses": A ruthless African warlord who dies when he accidentally snorts brown-brownnote laced with diamond dust.

"Chairway to Heaven": A deadbeat dad who abandoned his family so he and his buddy can have their own place to live — even Ron Perlman says that he'd like to kill any man who does that to his wife and kids— and eats it when he finds out the hard way that his Soviet fighter jet chair still has an active ejector seat mechanism.

"Rub-A-Dubbed-Out": The lowlife who stole groceries from a blind, pregnant woman and got impaled on a car wash jet spray that blew his skull open.

There was also another lowlife thug who targeted lonely female drivers specifically because he thought he could intimidate them much easier. Ron Perlman again lampshades it eagerly - paraphrased:

"Who are we kidding? He's gonna die! And you'll be happy when he does."

"Crate and Buried": The Sudanese thieves who stole food supplies for refugees and then die when a food crate falls on them.

"WW 1 And Done" The WW 1 corpse-robber from Germany, who loots a British soldier's corpse that was booby-trapped with an explosive known as a Jam Tin grenade.

"Master E-Raced". The ex-Nazi officer who got shot in the head in 1945 — and lived...until 50 years later, when he bumps his head while looking for milk in the fridge and dislodges the bullet in the head that should have killed him a long time ago.

edited 20th Sep '13 10:56:05 PM by TommyFresh

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16874: Sep 20th 2013 at 10:55:07 PM

Cut every single one.

Every. Single. One.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#16875: Sep 20th 2013 at 10:57:17 PM

I've heard many of the deaths on that show happened to perfectly decent people in real life, the show just turned the person into an asshole so the viewer wouldn't feel bad laughing at their stupid death.

But yes, cut all. The show consists of five-minute segments about people Darwinning themselves, it can barely even be said to have "characters" or anything.

edited 20th Sep '13 11:00:22 PM by HamburgerTime


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