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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16576: Sep 15th 2013 at 12:24:14 PM

I know that, but it seems like it shouldn't be brought up again if it was already discussed before.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16577: Sep 15th 2013 at 12:26:57 PM

That's not how it works. We can bring things up if there are new arguments

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#16579: Sep 15th 2013 at 12:33:43 PM

With the thread favoring cut, I've deleted Goebbels from Downfall and Ambassador Alkar from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I've made a slight change to the Commodus write-up to include the murder of Maximus' family.

I'd like to suggest a new write-up for the Horned King from The Black Cauldron, as the current entry doesn't quite go into the extent of his crimes.

Here's two examples I'd like to suggest a cut for, Zé Pequeno from City of God and Top Dollar from The Crow movie. Their respective entries from the YMMV pages:

  • Complete Monster: Zé Pequeno. He is easily one of the most evil and despicable examples in modern cinema. His Disproportionate Retribution, for one, because a girl rejected his advances at a party - he forces her boyfriend Mané Galinha (Knockout Ned) to strip naked publicly, then he rapes the girl, then finally surrounds Ned's house with his gang, opening fire and killing Ned's family.

Zé Pequeno is a sadistic bully with a hair-trigger temper who simply likes bloodshed, but has a redeeming trait. His friendship with Benny is portrayed as genuine, and his friend's death at the hands of his enemies actually makes him more unhinged later on.

  • Complete Monster: Top Dollar and his henchmen. Three of them rape and beat to death a harmless girl and also have her boyfriend (Eric) shot and thrown out the window. But Top Dollar is the one who ordered it, and that makes him even worse than them.
    • Top Dollar only ordered his goons to attack Shelly and make her stop her complains. The two lovers died because Eric came home too early. Tin-tin first killed Eric and the rest of the crew decided that it's easier to just kill them both than try to cover it up. Yes, they are monsters, but the point is that Top Dollar never gave order to "kill them both and rape the girl".
      • T-Bird: "We needed to put some fear into that little lady, she wasn't going along with our tenant relocation program. Then her idiot boyfriend shows up and turns a simple, sweep´n´clear into a total cluster fuck! "
    • Not that Top Dollar feels some kind of remorse even if he never ordered to kill both Eric and Shelly: "So I'm sorry if I spoiled your wedding plans, there, friend. But if it's any consolation to you, you have put a smile on my face."

Top Dollar and his henchmen is a group of at least 7 people, but the focus seems to be on him in particular. He meets the heinous standard, being an arsonist chaotic anarchist who wants to burn down Detroit For the Evulz and controls every crime in the city. He has one redeeming trait, strangely contrasting with Commodus, in that his incestuous love for his sister seems to be mutual and non-abusive, one of the rare cases where that trope crosses with Even Evil Has Loved Ones. I recall examples being cut on that criterium before.

This example from the comic I'm less sure on.

  • Complete Monster: The comic version of Funboy is inhuman. "Dude, half her head's gone." "I ain't interested in her head, man ..." Oddly, Funboy is the only villain in the comic who doesn't get brutally murdered by Eric, and is instead allowed to die by a self-inflicted heroin overdose. Though just before he dies Funboy seems to realize what a waste of space he is, and while he admits he feels no guilt about his deeds, he knows that he should.

It's been quite a while since I've read the comic, but what does it say about his character if the revenant whose dead girlfriend he killed and/or raped is willing to give him a merciful death?

edited 15th Sep '13 12:56:29 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16580: Sep 15th 2013 at 12:57:19 PM

Several things:

1. Ze came up a few pages back. My vote to keep stands on the point that Ze treats Benny as a possession, as Benny strokes his ego and mitigates him. Seems far less a redeeming quality.

2. Top Dollar's care for his sister is...sketchy to say the least. He shows no emotion at her death and barely seems to care. He even tells Eric later that the whole event has put a smile on his face.

3. Funboy is indeed godawful in the comic. However, he seems to realize what a monster he is and knows it should bother him, but doesn't. That said, he doesn't really outshine the other gang members, and T-bird of the comic is the most vile and evil of them. Funboy is allowed a merciful death as he helps Eric get T-Bird

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#16581: Sep 15th 2013 at 1:58:30 PM

Ze also massacred an entire brothel as a child for shits and giggles, and forced children to kill each other, having the survivors fight for him. His YMMV should probably mention that.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#16582: Sep 15th 2013 at 2:08:08 PM

Like the revised Napoleon, as it mentions Stalin but doesn't say anything about Stalin's positive qualities.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16583: Sep 15th 2013 at 2:15:26 PM

Yeah, I cannot see Ze caring for Benny on any real, emotional level. Benny is the handsome, popular, good with the ladies guy Ze can never be. It's almost parasitic ow Ze acts when Benny declares his intent to leave Rio de Janeiro and the way he acts towards Benny's girlfriend when he dies

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#16584: Sep 15th 2013 at 2:27:16 PM

Someone mentioned Vukmir, the villain from A Serbian Film earlier, in the context of the "Is this one of those things where everyone's so evil no one can qualify?" question. Now, I haven't seen it (nor do I plan to) but I read a summary for the P5 thread and... actually, the protagonist seems like a decent guy. IIRC, he's a family man who used to be a porn star when he was younger, and gets back into the business when his family falls on hard times where Vukmir is his director. The protagonist is driven to do evil as the film goes on, as Vukmir makes him star in increasingly-depraved films to earn his keep, but he crosses the Moral Event Horizon when he tries to force the protagonist to rape his wife and son for his next paycheck. The hero turns on Vukmir, killing him, his Dragon, and finally himself.

So, yeah, as gross as the film is it does sound like Vukmir is a clear villain. I've also read that the whole thing was supposed to be an indictment of The Balkan Wars... or something, but I suspect that's a Parody Retcon.

edited 15th Sep '13 2:27:31 PM by HamburgerTime

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16585: Sep 15th 2013 at 4:12:40 PM

If we are keeping the Horned King (I can't actually recall a discussion on him, though I tend to avoid the Disney ones anyway) that's a far better write-up.

[up]If that's the case then yes, Vukmir would indeed be the villain. Though having read a summary of the plot...Jesus. Pass the Brain Bleach.

As a heads up—I have almost finished watching Elementary. When I have, we will need to have a discussion about this show's version of Moriarty who is, well, let's just say that it's a unique take on the character, and one that I think might qualify.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16586: Sep 15th 2013 at 4:17:00 PM

From the last debates he was a narrow keep. The horned king

edited 15th Sep '13 4:17:29 PM by Lightysnake

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#16587: Sep 15th 2013 at 4:43:31 PM

[up][up][up] Vukmir definately sounds like a keep. If he`s the one that`s responsible for the movie being as dark as it is, then I don`t see why he wouldn`t qualify. I guess my aversion to the film made me want to dismiss it before.

The new Horned King writeup also looks good.

edited 15th Sep '13 4:44:33 PM by TommyFresh

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#16588: Sep 15th 2013 at 4:45:37 PM

  • From The Fugitive:
    • The one armed man. The opening scenes of the movie featuring the flashbacks to Helen Kimble's murder and how brutal it was makes one shiver.
    • Dr. Nichols. As despicable as the one-armed man was, he was merely hired muscle. Nichols? Arranged the murder of Kimble and his wife, did absolutely nothing while Kimble was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death, then acted as though he were aiding Kimble in his efforts to prove his innocence, while, in reality, he was again planning to have Kimble killed. He did all this while pretending to be Kimble's friend and all for the money he was going to make off of a pharmaceutical deal.

What did we decide for this one? I remember the one armed man was voted cut, but what was decided for Dr. Nichols?

These Film entries look good. Should they go on the sandbox?

  • Lord Naritsugu of Thirteen Assassins is The Caligula to an insane degree. His very first scene has him raping the daughter-in-law of a lord who's hosting him for the night, and then killing her husband for good measure. This isn't an isolated incident, either. Naritsugu has been doing this for so long, he threatens the very stability of the nation, and nobody can touch him as he's the Shogun's brother. Later, we see him tie up a family for target practice (including a little girl) and hear how he massacred a peasant revolt, taking the leader's daughter, after cutting out her tongue and chopping off her limbs, for his use as a sex slave. His only reaction to seeing the titular assassins mow down his loyal soldiers who die in defense of him is to contemplate how amazing the era of war must have been while deciding to return to such days.
  • Harry Lime (played by Orson Welles) from The Third Man. He steals penicillin from hospitals in post-World War II Vienna, waters it down so that it is useless, and sells it back to the open market. It's saying something when the lucky ones are those who merely die from the now-lethal medicine: many people, including children, are driven insane and die painfully. All this happens and Lime doesn't even feel any remorse.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16589: Sep 15th 2013 at 4:51:14 PM

I say expand Nichols.

I added Naritsugu myself. I hope it's a good entry. Harry Lime is a keep as well.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#16590: Sep 15th 2013 at 5:02:17 PM

There's also this:

  • In 8mm, several qualify. In order of depravity from least to greatest, they are as follows:
    • Mr. Christian — Anybody who contracts someone to find a snuff film for their viewing pleasure "just because they can" is complete scum.
    • Eddie Poole — Despite admitting that the sight of Mary Anne's murder made him sick, his efforts to cover up his involvement in her death at any cost obliterate any kind of sympathy we might have had for him. Moreover, he showed no remorse for deceiving oblivious runaways into believing he would lead them to stardom before ushering them into an industry that mercilessly exploited them.
    • Daniel Longsdale — a Smug Snake attorney who was the prime mover of Mary Anne Matthews' murder. After being unable to find a snuff film on the Black Market for Mr. Christian, he improvises by commissioning Velvet to make one. The reason: a quick profit of $1,000,000.
    • Dino Velvet — a twisted pornographer who makes films centered around the torture and brutalization of women (a disgusting practice that ultimately leads to Mary Anne's murder).
    • "Machine" — a psychopath who stars in Velvet's films to indulge his sadistic appetites. It is he who murders Mary Anne Matthews in the snuff film organized by Longsdale. By his own admission, he has no Freudian Excuse for his actions and merely partakes in such activities for his own personal amusement. What makes the "Machine" such a disturbing character is that not only did he choose to kill in spite of a somewhat comfortable upbringing and no Freudian Excuse in any way, but the fact that a Complete Monster can be in any shape and form, particular The Machine's true appearance...A bald, harmless man in glasses named George.

[Facepalm] In order of depravity?! That's not how the trope works..

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16591: Sep 15th 2013 at 5:08:23 PM

Keep Machine and Dino Velvet. Maybe Longsdale

edited 15th Sep '13 5:10:47 PM by Lightysnake

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#16592: Sep 15th 2013 at 5:09:19 PM

[up][up] We discussed that briefly before. Christian is a Posthumous Character so he's out, as is Poole because he's just a toady. The other votes were two [tup] and two [tdown] to Velvet and Longsdale both (and the people who voted [tup] on Velvet voted [tdown] to Longsdale, so there seems to be some disagreement as to who's more heinous) and three [tup] and a [tdown] to Machine.

edited 15th Sep '13 5:09:27 PM by HamburgerTime

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16593: Sep 15th 2013 at 5:15:55 PM

We discussed 8MM before, yet didn't make the cuts. Personally, Machine is the only one I can lend a vote to. Christian is dead, Poole is an accessory at worst (and shows standards to boot), and Longsdale contracted Velvet to make the film, but doesn't seem to have been personally involved. Velvet might qualify, but I'd need to know more about him. And in all honesty, if only one person died, can we really classify anybody as a CM?

On the subject of The Fugitive, I say cut. Nichols has a grand total of two attempted murders to his name. He didn't arrange for Kimble to be arrested (he just watched it happen), and his motivation is boring old greed. He's an absolutely standard villain, with nothing truly monstrous about him. As for the one-armed man, he's just hired muscle. Cut them both.

edited 15th Sep '13 5:18:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16594: Sep 15th 2013 at 5:19:50 PM

Also, what say we just cut Don Logan from Sexy Beast already?

Nothing is abound on what he does and if someone wants him back, they can come tell us why.

Crowley Since: Jan, 2001
#16595: Sep 15th 2013 at 5:33:47 PM

[up][up]I think a painful death for a Snuff Film is cruel and unusual enough to fit the Complete Monster minimum.

edited 15th Sep '13 5:34:40 PM by Crowley

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#16596: Sep 15th 2013 at 6:20:04 PM

The Silence of the Lambs needs cleanup.

  • Complete Monster: Several serial killers in the franchise, like Buffalo Bill, Dolarhyde and Hannibal himself avoided falling into this territory. One of the greatest achievements of the series is the great pains Harris takes to humanize his killers, who would almost certainly be complete monsters in any other series, and delve into the psychological factors that torture them and drive them.... well, crazy.
    • Hannibal was originally supposed to be a Complete Monster, and this was indeed how he was first described by Will Graham in Red Dragon for want of a "proper" diagnosis. He gets heaps more development in the next two books, which reveal him to be both eviler and better than most people would imagine. Still manages to avoid Villain Decay until the prequel Hannibal Rising, which is one of the problems people have with it.
    • However, Mason Verger is a straight example. A child-molesting sadist who brutally raped his own sister. Once karma catches up with him in the form of Hannibal Lecter, the crippled Verger resorts to verbally and emotionally abusing children since he can no longer do it physically. Then he drinks martinis made from their tears. Really.
    • Grutas from Hannibal Rising. He makes Hannibal look downright heroic by comparison. It says a lot about a person when the first thing he does is eat the protagonists baby sister and only gets worse.

Okay, it has a whole chunk of text about non-CMs and the line about Hannibal originally being meant to be a CM is irrelevant.

Mason Verger sounds pretty screwed up. Now, he is included under Jerkass Woobie. I'm not saying he doesn't count, but there's generally something wrong if a character is listed both as a CM and a JW.

  • Jerkass Woobie: All of the main antagonists, including Lecter himself: Dolarhyde was horrifically abused as a child; Gumb has his own issues and problems; even Verger attains this status not only with his disfigurement/paralysis at Lecter's hands but also considering the subtle clues that he was molested as a child by his father; and then there is Lecter's own backstory explored in the last two books.

Don't know about Grutas.

edited 15th Sep '13 6:21:13 PM by TVRulezAgain

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16597: Sep 15th 2013 at 6:32:55 PM

Hannibal had Verger disfigure himself because he was a childmolestor, so no, no tears shed for that one.

Grutas suggested cannibalizing a child, did so and was the one to actually kill her. After this, he becomes a ruthless crime boss. I'd say he's a potential keep.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16598: Sep 15th 2013 at 7:10:55 PM

[up][up]If Verger was sexually abused as a child, that would actually make for a relatively decent Freudian Excuse—people who were sexually abused at a young age can and sometimes do develop some truly screwed up notions of what defines appropriate sexuality. The stuff about the non-CM characters should, of course, be cut.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16599: Sep 15th 2013 at 7:17:05 PM

The issue is it's only, at best, implied, and that Verger is well aware of his actions and more than sadistic beyond sexual matters.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#16600: Sep 15th 2013 at 7:29:01 PM

[up]Then the entry needs to be improved in the other direction, to better acknowledge Verger's sadism and demonstrate that his Freudian Excuse is non-existent. We should also remove him from under Jerkass Woobie, if he does in fact qualify as a CM.


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