During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
BTW, I slightly changed the first sentence for OG Vandal:
- Vandal Savage: Born Vandar Adg, he was a caveman who received super intellect and immortality from a meteorite, after which he used his endless life to become the biggest monster he could.
EDIT: Also, wish I had known this earlier, but for, like, manga entries that have ...o(u), it's just ō. I've requested the easier fixes; Satō & Hyōdō also need de-potholing.
Also, at Visual Novels, for Ace Attorney, since there are only 6, anyone have any issue with keeping them as a separate group, but not having them in a folder?
EDIT 2: Mir pointed out to me that Umineko: Golden Fantasia is the game from which Black Battler comes from. Cross post to the video games page as well for that game? I'll do that, and de-folderize the Ace Attorney stuff, at 6 PM eastern time tonight if nobody objects. So:
- Umineko: Golden Fantasia: Black Battler, who also appears in "Forgery no.XXX
", is a negative Palette Swap of regular Battler Ushiromiya who lacks the good-guy depths that his real counterpart does. Not only does he talk about killing everyone on Rokkenjima, he also suggests to female characters that he's going to rape them, and he "tastes" male characters. He has a wicked habit of killing anyone he feels like killing, strictly For the Evulz, and laughing about it.
Edited by ACW on May 26th 2019 at 12:34:40 PM
It's 12 PM here on Peru and I'm fine. Apparently there was a earthquake at 2 AM but I didn't notice it, my mother has to wake me up.
Don't worry, we're far from the Epicenter, so my family is fine.
Also, I've wondered. How we deal with characters that legit treat Negative Traits as virtues?
Like, a guy that see Selfishness as a virtue and thus like to break heroes while constantly paying Visits to a Anti-Hero yet leaving him alive because he sees his selfishness as a virtue.
I'd guess it counts as a weird Redeeming.traits, as weird it sounds.
Edited by KazuyaProta on May 26th 2019 at 12:08:05 PM
Watch me destroying my countryA DC/Marvel crossover where a Marvel villain makes Joker look less evil by comparison? Why does that sound familiar?
'Yes' to Goddard
As someone who read that Batman/Punisher crossover during my and Scraggle's mass Elseworld binge years ago, I specifically decided Jigsaw didn't count. He can be effortposted, but the effects of his whole drought scheme aren't really delved much into if I recall right, and besides that he's utterly generic in his villainy, so I would be a 'No' vote
Agreeing with Age Of Trope Empire that Boyle does not count, same with Zsasz. Zsasz is nasty but, on top of his Freudian Excuse being played more...affecting to him than his comic version, he's really not heinous enough and is never given much of a spotlight in his villainy. He threatens to kill several people throughout Asylum and City, and you find several already dead victims, that's about it. In a series where Pyg tortures and mutilates many people to give them fates worse than death, Hush slices off the faces of many people, and it's honestly reaching DBZ levels of "every villain commits strings of murders, so just because one happens to have less resources than others doesn't help him qualify"
Edited by Ravok on May 26th 2019 at 10:18:12 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!![]()
Its not like Joker is morally offended by Jigsaw, Jigsaw just does more in these comics, Jigsaw is the one with the grand scheme in the first comic and both Jigsaw and Joker are pretty generic in the second comic.
That's fair, that's why I asked.
Also, I thought was interesting, a video on how to write pure evil villains well:
Thanks Age and Ravok for the info on Boyle, wanted to make sure, because we already have 8 C Ms from Arkham, so I wasn’t sure if Boyle would stand out.
I gotta say, I'm kinda impressed by how quickly the number of CMs for the Batman Arkham series increased. We used to have just Joker and Scarecrow for years, but starting with Strange's EP from last summer, the amount of CMs we have for it nearly quadrupled in less than a year. I figured since the series ended years ago, most candidates would have been gone through a long time ago.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 26th 2019 at 3:32:20 PM
Alrighty, new EP...collab with Hamburgertime here.
What's the work?
A spinoff to the seminal comic The Sandman, Lucifer is a followup written by Mike Carey centering on Lucifer Morningstar, the fallen angel and former lord of hell who has taken up residence in Los Angeles, owning his own bar, Lux alongside his lover Mazikeen. Lucifer, however, is called upon to do a favor for God and upon naming his price, creates a brand new world of his own, his personal creation...which changes the game entirely. Lucifer is left to defend his territory, and the main creation, against a host of dark powers, while dealing with a number of personal issues, with a host of nasty villains throughout.
Now, about 2/3s of the way through the story, we get one of our final villains and the nastiest. Enter...Fenris the wolf.
Who is Fenris?
The god of destruction, son of Loki, and a brutal monstrosity who believes in fulfilling his portfolio of chaos and obliteration, Fenris achieved his freedom ages ago and to show his old enemies "no hard feelings, guys", he hosted a banquet around the year 1000, inviting the gods Idun, Skuld and others...but what Fenris actually served them? His own flesh and blood as meat and wine, thick with his memories and thoughts until the day he recovered them, when the opportunity would present itself.
Resurfacing with the help of two trickster gods, Absandom and Bet Jo'Gie, Fenris rips apart one god, only to find he isn't one at the banquet, as Fenris entrusted his memories of the banquet to the giant Bergelmr...tracking down Bergelmir, he threatens the life of Bergelmir's lover to get the names. This done, Fenris hunts down and butchers his former 'friends', eating them all alive to recover his memories and plans on how to undo Creation itself.
Now, one fellow, Charles Gilmore...is on trial for the murder of his wife and daughter. Turns out, he's a pawn of Fenris, who intends to use Charles' madness to bring him and team Destruction to Yggdrasil, while Lucifer, his brother Michael and Michael's daughter Elaine are thrown there...in order to undo Yggdrasil, Fenris reveals he has Charles' wife and daughter, stolen from under his hammer by Abonsam...and he's going to force Charles to murder them to bring the oldest taboos at the roots of Yggdrasil, which will undo creation and kill everyone. Fenris mentions they can die quick or he's going to torture them to death....when things don't go as planned, and Lucifer and Michael are wounded, Fenris tricks a blinded Elaine, tearing open Abonsam, who also ate at fenris's table willingly, to give his own blood to Lucifer...allowing Fenris to possess him to try to kill Michael, Michael eventually dying there, kinslaying being just as valid a way around things....Fenris kills Charlie to cast off from Yggdrasil and leave Creation to burn.
Now, in the final arc, heaven is under siege by Lilith and her children, ending when Fenris arrives to kill the archangel Uriel, deciding to destroy Creation by dismantling the seat of god's power. Invading to massacre his way through the angels, Fenris launches himself into Heaven, to face the heroes, defeating the human Lord of Hell, Christopher Rudd with a pretty nasty trick, forcing him to taste the essence of pure destruction, before he and a weakened Lucifer fight before the throne, as Fenris gloats over his victory...Lucifer reveals he saved more power than Fenris realized and turns the tables, informing the Wolf that he doubts Fenris is capable of any new tricks. "It's all a matter of flexibility" before he blows Fenris's head apart.
Heinousness?
So, Lucifer is a dark series. Lucifer himself is no hero whatsoever, being...kind of a dick at the best of times. The demons are nasty as you can imagine...you have the Jin en Mok who intend on wiping all creation out, Lilith and Sandalphon who attempt to invade and destroy heaven, Lucifer who at one point destroys millions of souls because he was impatient, among others...but Fenris is the most outright destruction Omnicidal Maniac with some nasty personal touches. He's the worst in comic in body count and trying to force a man to kill his own family is again uniquely twisted.
Plus literally every other villain has some mitigating features to them with varying levels of complexity. Lilith has tons of redeeming features, as do most of the others. Fenris? Zip.
Mitigating Qualities?
The only possible issue is Fenris takes his rode as 'God of Destruction' really, really seriously, as he embodies destruction in its purest form. The issue is, as Sandman and Lucifer show...to embody roles is ultimately a choice. Fenris was not born to the role, but took it up and relishes in it. He's a devious sadist and violent egomaniac who's a Card-Carrying Villain ("Death and torture are friends of mine, and so we must be enemies, it seems!") and his care for his comrades is nonexistent. Abansom and Bett Jo'Gie are in it for the destruction, with Abonsam even willingly sacrificing his life and asking Fenris to tell his story. Fenris's response? "If I remember it" while abandoning him without a second glance.
Conclusion?
I'd call The Wolf a keeper.
Sure to Fenris...wow, we escalated from John Dee to Omnicidal Maniac Fenris.
Whatever happened to Dee, anyway?
Will Fenris go to the DC page like Dee, or the main comics page?

Yes to all the candidates I missed.
Speaking of Batman, I have an interesting question, there were a couple of Batman/Punisher crossover comics from the 90s, featuring Joker and Jigsaw and ironically Jigsaw may be the more heinous of the 2.
The first comic has Jigsaw planning to destroy Gotham's new Water Reservoir, so that it will have to rebuilt by a company he owns (apparently his company is the only one with the equipment to rebuild the Reservoir) for a king's ransom and if the city does not pay, Jigsaw says I hope they learn to drink dirt instead. Jigsaw is planning to cause a drought in Gotham and will only fix it for an obscene amount of money.
The second comic has Jigsaw and Joker doing generic villainy, trying to take over the mobs, with the occasional sadistic moment like with Joker and Jigsaw burying a mob boss up to his neck with sand and letting him get drowned by the beach tides.
So would causing a drought and only willing to fix it for a ton of cash be heinous enough?