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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
MovieFan2000 Since: Jan, 2016
#164552: May 25th 2019 at 5:13:43 AM

[tup] to Toby. Looks like he has some valueable moral agency

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#164553: May 25th 2019 at 5:25:44 AM

Abstain on Toby

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#164554: May 25th 2019 at 5:55:24 AM

I think I'll wait on Tyk's rewatch here.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#164557: May 25th 2019 at 6:14:10 AM

Also, since Overlord requested it, here's a tally for Ben Arnold:

[tup]: 18

[tdown]: 0

Abstain: 3

Unless there is an influx of downvotes, and/or most people switch their votes to abstains, Arnold's going up.

[down]You're welcome.

Edited by falcontalons on May 25th 2019 at 6:21:01 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#164560: May 25th 2019 at 6:58:27 AM

@43110: Yeeeeeeaaaaahh, I'm at work now. And I've heard nothing positive about The Ghost Dimension, which I never saw before, so. Not happening anytime soon.tongue

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#164561: May 25th 2019 at 7:22:25 AM

Mmm... that's fine, if he's the only demon we meet I'm willing to say any possible Made of Evil issues are in the Informed Attribute bin, as it doesn't sound like the films hinge an implication on the nature of demons in general beyond what we as the audience can discern from Toby's portrayal alone. I've no issue with him going up and if this interpretation is not the case and there's evidence agency is an issue, we can just cut him later.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#164563: May 25th 2019 at 8:17:21 AM

Sure to Toby. I assume he goes before Grandma Lois (assuming she still counts)?

EDIT: BTW, for the curious, we have 28 so far, not including Vandal Savage who I'll effortpost soon; plenty of room for de-potholed western animation films.

Edited by ACW on May 25th 2019 at 1:00:17 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#164564: May 25th 2019 at 9:32:06 AM

Was gonna say, that's my big concern: we've frequently had cases where the human collaborator counts due out of siding with some kind of Eldritch Abomination out of greed because that's a very fathomable kind of evil but the monstrosity itself has issues out of being a malevolent entity not entirely spelled out. Morgan hasn't been here in a while but he did Lois' writeup, would be nice if we could get a second opinion but if that's not feasible, again, I don't mind Toby going up and just having him re-evaluated if there's an issue.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#164565: May 25th 2019 at 9:35:12 AM

Before I get to some EP's today...okay, here's my top problem...

Does Toby have any discernible character? Toby is invisible for like 90 percent of his screentime, and communicates through growls or through objects. He's clearly sentient and malevolen, but what do we see that suggests the requisite amount of characterization?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#164566: May 25th 2019 at 10:05:31 AM

Yeah...honestly leaning towards a "no" on Toby.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#164567: May 25th 2019 at 10:15:53 AM

So, as promised, Vandal Savage from Grant Morrison's The Multiversity. First off, thanks to Ravok and 43110 for reading the issue and confirming Vandal's a keep.

What's the work?

From the trope page:

Grant Morrison's 2014-2015 limited series exploring the post-New 52 DC Comics multiverse. It comprises a two-issue framing story, a set of issues each taking place on a different Earth, and a guidebook to the multiverse.

The overarching story sees the rise of a threat to all reality, the demonic destroyers known as the Gentry, and the formation of the Justice League of the Multiverse in response, with the individual Earths' stories being self-contained, akin to the structure of Morrison's Seven Soldiers.

This version of the DC multiverse can be examined here, with all Earths profiled (except for the 7 Unknown Worlds, of course) as well as other aspects of the DC cosmology. A full-size print version of the multiverse map is provided with Pax Americana Director's Cut #1.

At the 2015 San Diego Comic-Con, Morrison announced Multiversity Too, a line of original graphic novels set in and beyond the 52 Earths, originally planned to kick off in 2016 with Multiversity Too: The Flash. As of 2018, nothing has come up.

So, yeah. For the curious, the "main Earth" is Earth-0, while we exist in Earth-33.

First off, I give Morrison MUCH credit, as there was a LOT to think out. Now, that being said, the series can be a massive Mind Screw at times, but fortunately, my candidate comes from one of the more grounded issues. Well, as grounded as a story about superheroes and supervillains can be [lol]. From Society of Super-Heroes: Conquerors of the Counter-World #1, Vandal Savage.

Who is Vandal Savage and what has he done?

So, this story narrated by Immortal Man, takes place on Earth-20, where Doctor Fate has called Immortal Man and other heroes together, as every 100,000 years, Earth-20 and Earth-40 (Vandal's planet; 20's Evil Counterpart) basically become one world. Vandal (heavily implied to be Cain, BTW), annoyed with a scientist's expospeak, bites? him to death. He relishes the thought of conquering, and brings together a team of villains to be "pirates...from a pirate universe".

They conquer Earth-20, and...well, let Vandal say it himself: "When I tire of one world, I'll raze the next, eternally! The rule of brute strength and red chaos will prevail! Rape and cruelty and—"

As for Historical Rap Sheet, while we don't SEE any of this, he is described by Immortal Man as

an immortal...who made it his mission to destroy whole civilizations. He'd brought Rome to its knees, he'd helped elevate then-humble Napoleon, he'd toppled the Czar. He loved to see schools blown apart, children sold into slavery, women abused and degraded. It was hard to imagine anything worse than Vandal Savage.

So, anyway, he and Immortal Man have a final showdown, and Vandal is killed...to his delight, as spilling immortal blood summons Niczhuotan, destroyer of worlds...

Heinousness?

No real issue. The Big Bad of the whole series is the Gentry, led by Empty Hand, but they're weird eldritch creatures, as opposed to Vandal, who STILL manages to conquer the Earth, has a Historical Rap Sheet (which we don't see, but there's enough of his current actions and his dialogue), and basically makes Rape, Pillage, and Burn a system of government.

Mitigating Factors?

Not a one. There's a line about him being a "pawn" of the Gentry, but nothing to indicate impaired agency. He shows no real care for his allies.

Conclusion?

Vandal Savage, without the charm or culture. A pure Ax-Crazy maniac who more than lives up to his name.

Edited by ACW on May 25th 2019 at 1:27:20 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#164569: May 25th 2019 at 10:21:16 AM

And BTW, I know I didn't have too much in what he did, but there's not too much to add. He goes around conquering and shit. We DO see panels of the war when he conquered Earth-20.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#164570: May 25th 2019 at 10:27:47 AM

Yes to Vandal....and now from a recent film Scrags and I watched: Deadly Force.

What's the work?

Deadly Force is a Wings Hauser 1980s film, far more boring than its premise should really lend itself to, with the ever unhinged Wings Hauser as a former cop turned PI, named 'Stoney' on the trail of a Serial Killer who carves X's into the heads of his victims...when one of his friends' grandkids is targeted, Stoney is on the trail, also finding his ex-wife, a reporter, who wants nothing to do with him despite him refusing to leave her be while she also investigates and intervies self help guru Eddie Adams.

In a weird twist? The CM today is not the X killer, but...Eddie Adams.

Who is Adams?

Once a criminal named Roger Fulton, sent to prison forever, Adams put a lot of effort into 'killing Fulton,' erasing his identity, murdering a man and burning the body to substitute as his own and escaping while reinventing himself as a self-help guru with a new identity, and steadily murdering those who knew of his true identity. When constructing a new community center for his plans, he decided to amp things up, with enough people in his way and the few who remembered Fulton...

Preying on a mentally ill figure, the 'X' killer, Adams directed him at his targets and obstacles, having them murdered...but also unleashed him to murder innocent people as well to throw off the cops: a random serial killer obscures the connections the victims actually have...now, Hauser begins closing in on the truth and looks into Fulton as Adams tries to seduce his ex-wife Eddie...now, the X killer flees back to Adams' mansion and attacks Eddie, but Adams? Guns him down to both finish that loose end and be a hero....however, Stoney keeps digging and with his ally Sam, they end up sneaking into adams' mansion where he catches them and takes Eddie hostage, intending on having them killed, while threatening to rape Eddie as well. Eddie gets free and Stoney fights through Adams' men, as Adams attempts to drive off...Stoney? Shoots his car's trunk which then explodes (?!?!!?), incinerating Adams in the blast.

Heinousness?

Well...creating a serial killer to kill 17 people, mostly innocent, betraying him and killing others? Pretty damn bad.

Mitigating Qualities?

Not a damn one to speak of. Like most megastar motivational speakers, Adams is a bad guy with a dark past. Nothing positive.

Conclusion?

We rather disliked the movie, but...keeper.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#164571: May 25th 2019 at 10:29:47 AM

Yes to the 2 above candidates, and I'll switch my vote on Toby to "abstain" unless the characterization issue is clarified.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#164573: May 25th 2019 at 10:33:35 AM

[tup] Adams. Looking at IMDB...isn't Eddie the ex and Joshua Adams the candidate?

Also, for Loptr, which of the 2 rewrites on the previous page do you prefer, mine or Iuka's?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#164574: May 25th 2019 at 10:33:59 AM

Right, Joshua Adams, yes. Shows you how forgettable this was...


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